21-09-2002 00:27									#61
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Well, there are of course also other reasons - some from the left are simply of pacifistic (sp?) nature, some others are more "technical" reasons, most military experts believe the Bundeswehr is simply not able to provide real help in a desert war, so even Stoiber, the conservative opponent of Schröder is against German troops in Iraq

Generally, many Germans are not in favour of military ops, because of our past - so even the slightest possibility that Germans will participate in such things provokes a big public discussion here...

	21-09-2002 00:28									#62
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Yes, I did. Now would you like to answer the other question I asked?

If you mean the question about the US style... I wasn't sure to understand you right. Well, I don't see anything special about this election, nothing different (other than the candidates) to the elections 1990, 1994 and 1998. It's the same insulting eachother and mudflinging between the parties as usual and if you mean that by US style, you're right .

	21-09-2002 00:30									#63
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

BeBro, did Germany's participation in peacekeeping operations is relatively recent? (say it started in the late '80s early '90) (I think so, just checking)

	21-09-2002 00:35									#64
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: If you mean the question about the US style... I wasn't sure to understand you right.

Germans campaign U.S.-style

	21-09-2002 00:36									#65
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 BeBro, did Germany's participation in peacekeeping operations is relatively recent? (say it started in the late '80s early '90) (I think so, just checking)

Yes, the peacekeeping missions on the Balkan were the first actions of German troops outside of German territory after WWII.

	21-09-2002 00:44									#66
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Dino, I just skimmed through this - I think "the focus on personalities" the article mentions has also a lot to do with Schröder´s popularity. He is much more popular than his own party, so the typical strategy of the SPD must be to place him in the front (to transform the sympathies of Schröder into votes, even when the chancellor isn´t elected directly)

	21-09-2002 00:48									#67
	Inflate your Upload Space

I think it is not only/so much "antiamericanism" as it is a genuine avertion to war operations especially where there is little sence behind it.

Germany has become a very conscious country/people

And with all its power it is a force to be reckoned with.

And the axis of Berlin and Paris remains strong.

things look good.

	21-09-2002 00:51									#68
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

of course, and dont kid yourselves, there remains the realpolitik hard/fact that european interests are not coinciding with american ones so much when it comes to iraq.

the US is trying to persuade Europe by promising more good oil deals with the new regime/government of iraq, but Europe remains opposed.

	21-09-2002 01:05									#69
	Suffering from ads?

"I'm suprised that anyone is taking statements by any official in the German government seriously until after the election. The most amazing thing though is how much they are making this election a US style one."

Yeh, knowing US-style stump speeches at the close of the campaign, it's amazing that she could put two clauses together that make any kind of sense, even as a slur.

	21-09-2002 01:16									#70
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Germans campaign U.S.-style

I see. Well, the TV duel was really something new, but I completely missed it, because I'll vote for neither of them, so I don't care much what they say. What concerns the other stuff like the "carefully crafted images" and the focusing on the candidates rather than their parties (which is countrary to our parliamentary system), if this is called US style, it must have been adopted long ago, because this hasn't changed since the last few elections.

	21-09-2002 01:22									#71
	Inflate your Upload Space

The other stuff she said is more of a low blow...

The minister, Herta Daeubler-Gmelin, was also quoted as saying that the United States "has a lousy legal system" and that "Bush would be sitting in prison today" if current U.S. laws against insider trading had been on the books when he worked in the oil industry in Texas.

Why on earth is she opining about something outside her purview? She must be trying to divert attention from the domestic situation.

	21-09-2002 01:46									#72
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

What the heck happened to my avatar?

	21-09-2002 01:48									#73
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

thank god

	21-09-2002 01:53									#74
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I mourn for the loss of your's as well.

	21-09-2002 01:58									#75
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by BeBro You mean why this "US style of the election" now - hm, good question. Perhaps because both top candidates aren´t really that different in their programs, so they lay more attention into other details - public image etc... Well, if someone would kick Saddam out, I would not be very angry about it... However, there are still unanswered questions, after the victory, what next? I mean, there are still problems in Afghanistan, how can we hope for a better development in a post-war Iraq when currently even Afghanistan is far away from being a more stable, democratic country? And if such a process fails in the Iraq, wouldn´t that mean the world has to face the same problems again, when another dictator comes to power there? So, what plans have the USA for the Iraq once Saddam is out?

BeBro, Germany is absolutely the very last nation on earth to complain about America's post war commitment to nationbuilding.

Have the people of Germany forgotten how America was there for the Geman people after WWII?

America is committed to both winning the war and winning the peace.

	21-09-2002 02:00									#76
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I'm not mourning for the loss of yours I'm happy.

	21-09-2002 02:11									#77
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Does anyone here know the actual quote? quote: "Bush wants to distract attention from his domestic problems. That's a popular method. Even Hitler did that." One has to wonder where the insult lies.

That's what the newspaper says. You can find the article here

quote: Anders als oft angenommen wird, sei das Hauptmotiv für Bushs harte Haltung nicht die Erdölversorgung, sagte Däubler-Gmelin. Denn: "Die Amerikaner haben selber genug Öl." Der Grund für die Kriegsvorbereitungen sei vielmehr in der US-Innenpolitik zu suchen. Aufgrund der Wirtschaftskrise in den USA seien die Popularitätswerte des Präsidenten stark gesunken. Die Ministerin: "Bush will von seinen innenpolitischen Schwierigkeiten ablenken. Das ist eine beliebte Methode. Das hat auch Hitler schon gemacht." Als daraufhin einige Zuhörer vernehmlich raunten, stellte die SPD-Abgeordnete klar: "Ich habe Bush nicht mit Hitler gleichgesetzt." Auch die britische Regierungschefin Maggie Thatcher habe 1982 einen Krieg um die Falkland-Inseln (Malvinas) geführt, um die Wahlchancen ihrer Tory-Partei zu verbessern.

Sorry, if I don't want to translate all this stuff. The next citation (when some of the audience started to murmur): "I didn't equate Bush to Hitler. The British minister president Maggie Thatcher also provoked the Falkland war to improve the chances in elections for her Tory party."

	21-09-2002 02:20									#78
	Suffering from ads?

IMHO, Bush is the right man in the wrong situation...

Germans have all the rights to complain about how he acts, but not to compare him to Uncle Adolf. Uncle Adolf was not a Crazy Texan Cowboy.

The more time passes by, the less i like Bush. I feel like a bad aura around this man, and believe me when i say that. I failed few times.

	21-09-2002 02:33									#79
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Just one thing please: Differentiate between
- Anti-Americanism
- Anti-Bush, and
- Anti-war.
These are very different things. I'd only equate Anti-America and Anti-Bush if Bush was elected by 99,99% of the votes. And this is a result I'd usually ascribe not to the population but to major fraud.

	21-09-2002 02:36									#80
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

It's not Bush. The unilateralists and the republicans (doh!) have taken an upper hand in a time period of unrest for the US.

They act the only way they know how.

They were never liked by Europe. And they act more because of the situation thus making Europe liking them less.

Remember that during Clinton's reign (and some trade wars aside) there was a US-EU "flirt" no problems.

	21-09-2002 05:03									#81
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Well it does seem clear that where once Germany supported the use of force to oust Saddam it opposes it now; the only difference between then and now is the party of the American president.

I believe this is why Republican members of Congress have called for retaliation if Schroeder is re-elected. Two can play this game.

	21-09-2002 05:14									#82
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

While the minister's remark was thoughtless, I don't view it as particularly insulting. She probably should have chosen Thatcher to begin with though.

quote: Well it does seem clear that where once Germany supported the use of force to oust Saddam it opposes it now; the only difference between then and now is the party of the American president.

Ahem... Bush Sr. was also a Republican, was he not?

	21-09-2002 05:28									#83
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Ned BeBro, Germany is absolutely the very last nation on earth to complain about America's post war commitment to nationbuilding. Have the people of Germany forgotten how America was there for the Geman people after WWII? America is committed to both winning the war and winning the peace.

This isn´t about complaining, but the questions I asked have to be answered to "win the peace" (which I absolutely hope) how you said...

	21-09-2002 05:48									#84
	Support Apolyton

Ned that's not exactly the entire story, the americans gave money to all of europe without clauses, except the UK. They insisted on us giving up the empire, and even now we owe huge sums of money on debts incurred during WWII that america still holds over us, and we pay interest on that sum. Sure you bailed out Europe don't get me wrong, but you did not do it entirely fairly.

On germany, that remark was stupid, but bush is not entirely innocent of being a dictator. When for example are those prisoners in camp xray to be charged? But he is not comparable to hitler in any way.

Besides that he's too damn tall

	21-09-2002 05:53									#85
	Increase Your PM Length

who bush?

	21-09-2002 06:17									#86
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

He's the guy the americans didn't vote for, but somehow is their leader. You know George Dubya Bush the dopey one!

	21-09-2002 06:23									#87
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

yeah but is he that tall?

	21-09-2002 06:30									#88
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Dunno I think he is, and Hitler was small anyway. So they don't look much alike

Kind of ironic really Germany's master race would consist of blonde haired, blue eyed tall athletic men from Germany. Hitler was small, brown haired, dunno what eyes, but from Austria.

Would have taken a brave person to point it out though

	21-09-2002 06:33									#89
	Inflate your Upload Space

People from Austria and people from Germany are both German.

	21-09-2002 06:34									#90
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

he was also jewish and a pedophile but noone's perfect.