20-09-2002 20:55									#1
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What's going on Germany? It appears that anti-Americanism there has reached new lows with the crack by the German justice minister comparing Bush to Hitler. Even members of Congress are calling for a "reajustment" of our relations with Germany if Schroeder is re-elected. This has all the look of a downward spiral that could end our alliance.

http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europ...tion/index.html

Last edited by Ned on 20-09-2002 at 22:54

	20-09-2002 21:05									#2
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Don't worry, she's European, just like Hitler.

	20-09-2002 21:10									#3
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shcreder has managed to win whereas he was loosing HUGE by promising the good and justious German people of TODAY (emphasis on today - go Germany ) that their country will not participate in a war against Iraq.

The fact that he has been able to turn the tables on his favor just by that proves that Germans are following the path the Greeks showed: anti-americanism.

	20-09-2002 21:10									#4
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english are worse than germans sagacious, stop bragging like you just won WW2 for fook's sake.

	20-09-2002 21:11									#5
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I think for the maintenance of the atlantic alliance we should try to be as conciliatory as possible with the Germans and minimize any rift. America's enemies would like nothing more then such a rift occur, the best way to fight them is to try to ensure friendly relations with Germany.

	20-09-2002 21:12									#6
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bah i think it's better to be anti-american (governement of course, not racism!) like Schröder is (at the moment ) than being a Warmonger like Stoiber

	20-09-2002 21:12									#7
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i agree

	20-09-2002 21:14									#8
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 english are worse than germans sagacious, stop bragging like you just won WW2 for fook's sake.

I was showing how a comparison does not mean that much. I don't see how it is bragging.

I'm European, just like Hitler. I'm not offended by that comparison, its a true one.

	20-09-2002 21:18									#9
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Yes sure a single anecdote is proof of a new all time low (shouldn't it be high btw?). The person in question said it when no journalists where present. A swedish minister said that Norway was the last soviet state in a simular situation. Everyone knows that comparing anyones views with Hitlers is common in more private talks. Nothing strange about that.

	20-09-2002 21:19									#10
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As Albertus pointed out, the Minister's comments are being blown out of proportion and taken slightly out of context. What she said was some of the tactics this administration have used was something Hitler had done. That's not the same as saying "Bush is like Hitler."

It was perhaps a poor choice considering the political mileage Bush & Co. are getting out of twisting her words, but it wasn't a bad thing to say in and of itself. She was right, after all.

	20-09-2002 21:22									#11
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the US cannot possibly be compared to Nazi Germany nor Bush with Hitler.

There are some things which are simply absurd.

	20-09-2002 21:26									#12
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I bet Hitler banned computer games as well...

	20-09-2002 21:28									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Ned What's going on Germany? It appears that anti-Americanism their has reached new lows with the crack by the German justice minister comparing Bush to Hitler.

Currently it is unclear whether our minister has said this or not - she just said she hasn´t on a press conference...

	20-09-2002 21:29									#14
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Oh, and I don't think our relations with Germany will be affected that much. We need the bases we have there, after all, to wage war on Iraq.

Hmmm, what if Germany balks at the U.S. using those bases to coordinate the Iraq war, and kicks us out?

	20-09-2002 21:29									#15
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Do you compare the holocaust with some internet caffees closing down?

This is a great insult to all the victims of Nazi Germany.

	20-09-2002 21:29									#16
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If you are being told you are doing the same thing as Hitler how is that not meant to mean you are like him? Why mention Hitler at all unless your attempt was to connect the two? It's only because of the political heat that she is backtracking, first trying to say she was misquoted and then saying she was misinterpreted.

	20-09-2002 21:31									#17
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Germans have become antiamerican to larger extend than in thepast.

Maybenot antiamerican in the french or greek way of viweing things but certainly they are more disgusted by the foreign policy of the US. It amounts to the same thing, practically.

	20-09-2002 21:32									#18
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It only took a mention that Geermany will not follow the US in order for the germans to choose Schreder in a time when he was losing big time.

That says something, of course.

	20-09-2002 21:34									#19
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If you read the article you would understand this isn't about the holocaust paikitis.

	20-09-2002 21:35									#20
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quote: Originally posted by walruskkkch If you are being told you are doing the same thing as Hitler how is that not meant to mean you are like him? Why mention Hitler at all unless your attempt was to connect the two? It's only because of the political heat that she is backtracking, first trying to say she was misquoted and then saying she was misinterpreted.

Maybe she only tries to avoid the criticism now. Of course if she said this, it would be absolutely idiotic. However, its election time here, and there is everything possible...

	20-09-2002 21:40									#21
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That's why it's not really a big deal, just embarassing for the moment. I don't doubt that she does feel that way about Bush. I doubt it was a simple rhetorical comment. It was meant to be insulting and it would be nice if she stood by her statement. It would show more of backbone than the rest of the German government has shown so far in fighting terrorism. But then again they have some close ties of their own with Iraq so it's not unsurprising they are reluctant to do anything.

	20-09-2002 21:40									#22
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quote: Originally posted by walruskkkch If you are being told you are doing the same thing as Hitler how is that not meant to mean you are like him? Why mention Hitler at all unless your attempt was to connect the two? It's only because of the political heat that she is backtracking, first trying to say she was misquoted and then saying she was misinterpreted.

Hitler also started the construction of the autobahns in Germany. Clearly, any politician who favors highway building is exactly like Hitler. As for why Hitler would be mentioned, it's simply a convenient and easily recognizable example. Can you think of a better one off the top of your head where a leader blatantly used militarism and threats of war to draw attention away from a terrible domestic situation? Now, before people jump down my throat, I'm NOT comparing the situation in the US to that of Weimar Germany, nor am I condoning exactly what she said (although, niether am I condemning it). I'm merely showing how her comments make sense for the point SHE was trying to make.

Why do so many Americans (not all) have to equate any negative statement made against their country as "US is evil, every American is evil, all must die"? Try taking things in context for once.

	20-09-2002 21:45									#23
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Oh well, no German support.

Thems the breaks.

	20-09-2002 21:49									#24
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quote: Originally posted by walruskkkch That's why it's not really a big deal, just embarassing for the moment. I don't doubt that she does feel that way about Bush. I doubt it was a simple rhetorical comment. It was meant to be insulting and it would be nice if she stood by her statement. It would show more of backbone than the rest of the German government has shown so far in fighting terrorism. But then again they have some close ties of their own with Iraq so it's not unsurprising they are reluctant to do anything.

I think the current government has no problem with fighting terrorism, and supporting the US here. But when it comes to fighting against Iraq, that is a different thing, and different opinions about political questions do not mean anti-americanism...

	20-09-2002 21:53									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Kontiki Hitler also started the construction of the autobahns in Germany. Clearly, any politician who favors highway building is exactly like Hitler. As for why Hitler would be mentioned, it's simply a convenient and easily recognizable example. Can you think of a better one off the top of your head where a leader blatantly used militarism and threats of war to draw attention away from a terrible domestic situation? Now, before people jump down my throat, I'm NOT comparing the situation in the US to that of Weimar Germany, nor am I condoning exactly what she said (although, niether am I condemning it). I'm merely showing how her comments make sense for the point SHE was trying to make. Why do so many Americans (not all) have to equate any negative statement made against their country as "US is evil, every American is evil, all must die"? Try taking things in context for once.

Bill Clinton?

Seriously though. When government officials make those comments then it is not out of the question for a government spokeman to ask for clarification.

	20-09-2002 22:07									#26
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this kind of scandals are just perfect. It's the perfect opportunity for both journalists and politicians alike to avoid the real political issues that don't sell newspapers or gain votes.

	20-09-2002 22:19									#27
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Hah! I knew those Germans were just waiting for another shot at us! This means WAR!

Seriously though, I thought the world was at the point where the power was in the hands of enough people that the personal slight of one leader against another wasn't going to determine policy....

	20-09-2002 22:23									#28
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Ho my god, th Germans don't agree witht the Bush Iraq policy, so a 50 year relation is over! What a load of Crap!

Assuming that Bush is still president by 2005 (Hope not, hope not), both sides still have overwhelming similarities in various aims that will mean a strong relation- and of course, if the Iraq adventure goes wrong, the Germans will be able to glow and Bush will have to eat crow- even if it goes well, the relation will live on.

Why do people act like such idiots? Long term relations are not broken due to disagreements of administrations over single issues- the fact that anyone is thinking so shows that we have lost perspective on the Iraq issue, and are hurtling down too fast towards war. The German people generally oppose it, so german politicians are making it an issue- wow, what a shock- i though democratically elected officials were supposed to act accoprding to botht ehir convictions and public feelings: guess Schroeder decided not to pull a Blair.

	20-09-2002 22:24									#29
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"On the existential questions that decide German politics," Mr. Schroeder preached at one of his campaign rallies, "the decisions are made in Berlin -- in Berlin and nowhere else." If such rhetoric wins him reelection, Mr. Schroeder is likely to find that future démarches by his government about decisions made exclusively in Washington will have little credibility --

Washington Post Editorial, September 17

	20-09-2002 22:50									#30
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To make it a bit clearer why Germany will not participate in an attack on Iraq, I'll give two excerpts of our constitution:

quote: Artikel 26 (1) Handlungen, die geeignet sind und in der Absicht vorgenommen werden, das friedliche Zusammenleben der Völker zu stören, insbesondere die Führung eines Angriffskrieges vorzubereiten, sind verfassungswidrig. Sie sind unter Strafe zu stellen.

Acts which are suitable to and are undertaken in the intent to disturb the peaceful cohabitation of the peoples, especially to prepare an aggressive war, are against the constitution. They have to be punished.

quote: Artikel 115a (1) Die Feststellung, daß das Bundesgebiet mit Waffengewalt angegriffen wird oder ein solcher Angriff unmittelbar droht (Verteidigungsfall), trifft der Bundestag mit Zustimmung des Bundesrates.

The establishment that the federal territory is attacked by an armed force, or that such an attack is immediately expected (event of defense, has to be made by the Bundestag with acknowledgement of the Bundesrat.

Regulations follow what happens if there is no time for an appropriate action, but what I want to point out is that "defensive war" is quite well described in the constitution.
I should add that these laws very probably date back to 1949 when the Americans had a wary eye on what happened in Germany.

About the minister: If she really said this it was plainly stupid. There are enough other examples for making war to distract from domestic problems; the French Revolutionary wars for example