21-09-2002 01:48									#1
	New Civ Traits Support Apolyton

It's way too late for PTW - I know. But upcoming Expansion pack(s) would do well to add new Civ Traits.

Let's face it. Five is NOT enough.
Commercial
Expansionist
Militaristic
Scientific
And Religious

Possible additions:
Charismatic (less unhappiness, units do better under certain situations, lower chance of flipping.......OR if it wouldn't destabilize the game, a second GA + something else)

Horny - For lack of a better word (the civ would reproduce like mice + something else)

Agricultural (self explanatory)

Nomadic - Can Change your capital anytime + have the ability to transfer units of population to other cities.


Any other suggestions?

	21-09-2002 03:09									#2
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Well nomadic and horny and agriculture arent traits that suit the other ones. Charismatic works. There could be a nice trait. Like understanding. They have happines with citiezens and have the option to ask for things free without damanding and teh other peson wont get mad.

	21-09-2002 05:03									#3
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quote: Originally posted by King_Xerces Any other suggestions?

How about Industrious, where your workers do work twice as fast, and as your city grows you get extra shields?

That would be Awesome!!!!!

	21-09-2002 09:27									#4
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wat about diplomatic... basically small adv in diplomacy

i think everyone agrees expansionist mod sux. maybe they should drop the friendly passive barb mod and add city starts with 2 pop instead (if that doesnt cause upset in balance) that sounds more like civ would be encouraged to expand.

but if you use editor, surround a starting city radius w/ passive barb tribe and choose expansionisy and build city. once culture border expands ur in medieval age lol.

	21-09-2002 14:54									#5
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I think five is enough, but I really like Tuberskis idea of a industrious trait.

	21-09-2002 15:32									#6
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it sounds overpowered to me.

	22-09-2002 04:47									#7
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Had this discussion a while ago. Ah, I remember one:

'Maritime' trait (sea tile bonuses and sea related improvements at lower prices). There was a equivalent for air power and air improvement bonuses thrown up but those come into play too late. Would be a bit unfair.

	22-09-2002 05:12									#8
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Yeah, I remember that ... the Maritime trait was a good idea. Something to make Civs like England actually useful for something.

	22-09-2002 05:32									#9
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Well it was originally brought up for a possible civ from Oceania - but I suppose it would be good for England too (seeing the have the most useless UU ... wait, that or the F-15).

	22-09-2002 08:14									#10
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quote: I think five is enough, but I really like Tuberskis idea of a industrious trait.

Yup. That Industrious quality could be just what civ3 needs


I also like the idea of having diplomatic and maritime traits. England was incredibly powerful, mainly because it took to the sea's. I'd love to play as or against the english, but unfortunately they suck so much it's pointless. Giving them a maritime trait would probably make them more playable.

which reminds me.....

If new qualities are introduced, maybe firaxis could offer some patches to change the various traits (and habits) of civs. For example:
the English should be maritime (as pointed out earlier)
the Chinese should be horny (?trait name?) instead of militaristic
and the American's should be diplomatic instead of expansionistic

Some civ's in PTW may need changes too, but it's too early to tell.



Hagbart,
I used to feel the same way. Although five may BE enough, it wouldn't make the game more interesting. New qualities would allow for some pretty intense, well fought games From BEGGINNING to END. The civ experience doesn't really have that right now. You usually know if you're to win or loose after Rexing. I think it'd make the game more interesting if a struggling civ (charismatic perhaps?) could come back in industrial or modern times and pull away. This would suit the American's for example. More traits would make the game more realistic and fun, adding increased balance and playability if programmed right.

This game has alot of potential

	22-09-2002 10:36									#11
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quote: Originally posted by King_Xerces Horny - For lack of a better word (the civ would reproduce like mice + something else)

Not needed - they already do! Every bit of land is soon taken up by cities and when their down to their last city and you take it, a settler will have popped out magically.

I think this trait is already there, applied to everyone.

	22-09-2002 22:27									#12
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We have 6 civ traits, and each civ can have 2 of them. Doing some little math will tell you that there are 6 nCr 2 = 15 different combinations. PTW has 16 civs in total, so there will be at least 2 civs with exactly the same civ traits.

	23-09-2002 06:06									#13
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Actually its Civ3 that has 16 civs and 2 of them have the same traits. QUIZ: Which ones? However, they start with different tech. In PTW, the Koreans have the same trait as India and start with the same tech (according to the screenshot). Why didn't they give 'em different tech? Also, Korean UU is a "hwacha" that is, cannon, but how can a cannon win a battle?

	23-09-2002 06:30									#14
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You can't unless Lethal Bombardment is on. I guess you do like i do when I play the Americans, get a Wonder GA.

	23-09-2002 08:49									#15
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Well, I definitely like the Charismatic trait. I think the other trait you were looking for is "Prolific"-not horny . This could work by having all new cities having +1 population when built, or maybe settlers cost 1 population less? The second part of the trait is that all improvements connected to city growth (Granary, hospitals and aqueducts) are half cost!

Anyway, some traits I'd like to see is Maritime, as suggested above. Not sure how it would work, but I'd suggest that all coastal improvements and wonders cost half as much to build, and perhaps + 1 commerce from Sea tiles?
I would also like the agricultural trait. This one might be that each city gets +1 food from every irrigated tile, and each new city gets a bonus +1 food to aid city growth!
That number of new traits would make me VERY happy!!

Yours,
The_Aussie_Lurker.

	23-09-2002 11:08									#16
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An Agricultural trait could be treated like industrious and commercial: 1 extra food at size 7. Also cheaper granary and aqueduct.

	23-09-2002 14:04									#17
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My 0.02 $:

1. Agricultural
+1 food (in the city, after size x)
cheaper granaries, aqueduct, hospital

2. Maritime
+1 movement on sea
cheaper harbors

3. Nationalistic (instead of charismatic or diplomatic)
better trade deals
more chances to succeed in espionage missions
less chances for cities to defect (flip)
less war weariness


P.S. The "horny" trait in cute. Maybe they could build special units, called "Aphrodite's priestesses", which would make nearby enemy troops to defect! I could imagine also a small wonder, called "The arrows of Cupid", that would boost the fertility of your entire civ!

	23-09-2002 20:34									#18
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I like the idea of that new wonder (cupids arrow)- but dont such wonders already exisit - eg the pyrimids, longetivity, etc.....
Maybe a city could grow by two people instead of one when the food box is full.....

I also have something to add to the maritime trait. Most civs could not sail the open ocean which is why they didn't discover the new world, and didn't become very powerful. Civ's like the English should have the ability to sail the open ocean from mapmaking onwards (with cheaper galleys). That would make 'em more like what they were meant to be - instead of learning of their existance, and automatically knowing they're toast.
The maritime quality would suit the vikings as well - think, if the vikings had a bigger population to begin with, they'd probably own the world.

Finally, I should say that nationalism is a fairly new idea. There used to be city states instead of nations - ie athens, sparta, yadayada.........

Charismatic is probably the way to go as it's been around from day 1 - as a natural human quality of resiliece. Some nations were extra resilient.

I think charismatic would fit the Hebrews - charismatic and religious. Masada, the macabees and whatever are all good examples.

	23-09-2002 21:03									#19
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that's just in greece, or say europe. China has been united as one country since 200 bc.

	24-09-2002 00:17									#20
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With the exception of the Nationalist/Communist struggle that lasted around 25 years, of course.

	24-09-2002 00:37									#21
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It is imho very strange to make a hole civ charismatic. Charisma is a human trait, it can't be compared to industrious or commercial.
So charismatic is a bad idea.

	24-09-2002 04:39									#22
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Besides Culture is kind of Charisma, if you think about it.

	24-09-2002 09:54									#23
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quote: Originally posted by King_Xerces I like the idea of that new wonder (cupids arrow)- but dont such wonders already exisit - eg the pyrimids, longetivity, etc..... Maybe a city could grow by two people instead of one when the food box is full.....

King_Xerces...the Cupid thing was a joke.
Edited: Btw, increasing the population by 2 instead of 1 when the food box is filled is exactly what Longevity does.

quote: It is imho very strange to make a hole civ charismatic. Charisma is a human trait, it can't be compared to industrious or commercial.

I agree, this is why I said "nationalistic". I know that nationalism is a relatively new concept, but "nation" is a very old concept and when I say nationalistic I think to a very proud, tough, hard-to-defeat nation. (the hebrews was a good example). Find another word for it, but not charismatic.

	25-09-2002 09:33									#24
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quote: King_Xerces...the Cupid thing was a joke.

I kinda realized it was a joke, but there's no such thing as a bad idea. Maybe if you dressed it up a bit, and made it sound more realistic, a wonder to assist in flipping might be a pretty good wonder afterall.

quote: I agree, this is why I said "nationalistic". I know that nationalism is a relatively new concept, but "nation" is a very old concept and when I say nationalistic I think to a very proud, tough, hard-to-defeat nation. (the hebrews was a good example). Find another word for it, but not charismatic.

Scotts too. They were a tough little nation.
BTW, I dont think wording really matters as long as we agree on the concept. . I can only hope that firaxis is reading this right now and considering some of these idea's.

	26-09-2002 18:32									#25
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quote: Originally posted by King_Xerces ... Scotts too. They were a tough little nation. BTW, I dont think wording really matters as long as we agree on the concept. . I can only hope that firaxis is reading this right now and considering some of these idea's.

I agree that Nationalistic would be an excellent choice as it describes cultures like the chinese, who absorbed invaders like the Mongols.

Make it a 50% increase for the resistance to outside cultural influences, and that would be just right. No culture flipping if they are your people, but if they are conquered, there will still be a chance that they may flip back, or that their cultural identity doesn't fade away in a conquered city as the population increases.

PTW should be very interesting...


D.

	27-09-2002 13:15									#26
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The French ought to be nationalistic, too (instead of industrious; why are they industrious is beyond me ).
After all, it is hard to find a nation that in more "nationalistic" than the French.