21-09-2002 01:58									#1
	Extra cash through selling techs Inflate your Upload Space

Since we're in dire need for extra cash to fund military purchases and upgrades along with civil projects, I have come up with this plan, which is basically to sell off our techs in exchange for a few coins and some other commodities.
The revenues from each deal are pathetic, but the total revenues are equal to a turn's income so it might be a good idea to consider this plan, or at least parts of it.

* America
Sell: Monotheism.
Revenue: 16 lytons, 1 worker and their world map.
Comments: I don't see anything wrong with this deal. The Americans having Monotheism will not harm us in any way, and that extra worker could be handy as well. We should definitely do this one.

* Iroquois
Sell: Chivalry.
Revenue: 6 lytons and their world map.
Comments: The Iroquois don't have iron nor horses. If you look at the map you'll also notice that they're effectively sealed off by the Romans and therefore will not be able to settle in a spot that has access to either resources. Considering their lacking road system and the fact that they have no harbor, nor will they build one in the near future, we can safely assume that they won't get the necessary resources for building knights before they're old news. Since they cannot build knights, and Chivalry is a dead-end tech, we're basically giving them NOTHING for something. Such deals are always good deals IMHO.

* Babylon
Sell: Chivalry.
Revenue: 9 lytons and their world map.
Comments: Same deal with the Iroquois, they are completely blocked off from all sources of iron and horses. "Nothing for something" deals are my bag baby, yeah!

* France
Sell: Chivalry.
Revenue: 10 lytons and their world map.
Comments: I do not view France as a military threat. They have been pushed away from most of their fertile and productive grasslands and mountains and into plains and deserts. Furthermore, they depend on us for their supply of horses. Therefore France having Chivalry will not make them a threat to us and we can do this trade safely.

* Sum-up
Total earnings: 41 lytons, an American worker and world maps.
Extra benefits: Improved relations with all the above-mentioned civs (AIs always improve their attitude towards you when you offer them good deals). None of those civs likes us but after we execute these trades the situation will likely change in our favor.

As always, comments and suggestions will be appreciated.

Last edited by Shiber on 21-09-2002 at 04:38

	21-09-2002 02:27									#2
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American trade proposal:
We need more slaves for Clearing Jungle, so it sounds like a good deal to me to get 16 gold from them instead of the Aztecs getting a share every turn chat by razing one of their cities. (Worker is probably valued at 20 to 25 gold.)

Irq trade proposal : Nyet. What if they get manage to acquire iron and horses? Plus lowers the value we might get from selling it to somewhat with somewhat more cash.

bab trade proposal. Nyet. Same reason.

France? After that last war? No way in h---.

	21-09-2002 02:44									#3
	Re: Extra cash through selling techs Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Shiber The revenues from each deal are pathetic, but the total revenues are equal to a turn's income so it might be a good idea to consider this plan, or at least parts of it.

We need 80L to upgrade a single knight.

I'm considering the proposal, though. I'd like to hear more discussion. My current thoughts are:

America -- We have plans to sell them this tech, but I was reserving the sale of it. I may reconsider. We want to sell America a "useless" tech right before we declare war on them (at some nebulous point in the future) so that they are unable to rush defenders or buy allies. Our goal is to deprive them of their cash just before attack. We need to keep some non-military tech around to sell them for this purpose.

However, it's always good to get an extra American Industrious worker.

Iriquois -- The Foreign Ministry has selected them for "Charity" status, and I don't mind grossly uneven trades with them on that account. Chivalry would give them Longbowmen, and if they ever get in a fight with Rome, it could help.

Frankly, the 6L we'd get is virtually worthless, so I'm almost in favor of just giving the tech away.

Babylon and France -- If either of these guys could pony up a decent cash payment for this tech, I'd sell it to them, but my conscience just pains me to see them get a useful military unit (France would even get knights) for such a pitiful sum. Babylon isn't a real danger, and may soon qualify for "Charity" status, but France is FURIOUS with us. Sure, we sell them wines, dyes, and horses. I think their diplomatic hands are tied. They can't possibly declare war, but if another civ offers them $$ to join in a war with us, they'd take it. Their irrational AI hatred is pretty high. We need to hope that, in time, it calms down.

Anyhow, those are my immediate thoughts. I'll read this thread tonight/tomorrow and decide what ought to be sold before the next turnchat.

--Togas

	21-09-2002 02:53									#4
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Edit to clarify sorry, i messed up the initial post. We do the american deal. with the worker that is worth almost 40g. Now we then gift the worker to any civ we are going to trade chivilary to, since we will get it back free with the trade, there thats better. Example if party "A" has 10 gold we gift the worker to them, then offer to sell give them chiv for gold+ new worker. We get people liking us and we get alittle gold, though to be honest hardly enough, except for american case I'd say no.
Aggie

Last edited by Aggie on 21-09-2002 at 03:08

	21-09-2002 02:56									#5
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn Irq trade proposal : Nyet. What if they get manage to acquire iron and horses? Plus lowers the value we might get from selling it to somewhat with somewhat more cash. bab trade proposal. Nyet. Same reason.

You're kidding right? The Iroquois are a threat?
Both the Iroquois and the Babylonians will be eliminated by Rome or Russia before we ever manage to exchange fire with these minor players.

quote: Originally posted by joncnunn France? After that last war? No way in h---.

We kicked their asses, joncnunn. We wiped the floor with them. We burned their horrid 'designer clothes' and spilled their stinking perfumes into the ocean.
France is not a threat. Period. We've handled France before with much success, and now they're barely half as strong as they were before and we're nearly twice as strong as we were then, and the gap just keeps getting bigger.
Furthermore, France is the least aggressive nation in the game. Their aggression setting is 1 out of 5 (the bare minimum).
Finally, France will get Chivalry anyway in a matter of 5 to 10 turns, you can count on that.

	21-09-2002 03:03									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Togas We want to sell America a "useless" tech right before we declare war on them (at some nebulous point in the future) so that they are unable to rush defenders or buy allies.

Theology can do the job.

quote: Originally posted by Togas France is FURIOUS with us. Sure, we sell them wines, dyes, and horses. I think their diplomatic hands are tied. They can't possibly declare war, but if another civ offers them $$ to join in a war with us, they'd take it. Their irrational AI hatred is pretty high. We need to hope that, in time, it calms down.

France's AI aggression setting is 1 out of 5 (the bare minimum). With all those trade agreements, their dependancy on us for a supply of horses and the fact that we're so strong and they're the second weakest nation (after America of course), it's next to impossible that they'll declare war on us anywhere in the next 30 turns.

By the way, I forgot to note that since all these trades are fairly crummy and we're selling techs for much less than they're worth, the AIs we'll trade our techs to will like us much better as a result.

	21-09-2002 03:06									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Aggie We could buy the american worker for hard cash and turn around an sell them the tech, since the have more cash we probably could get it all. Aggie

They're already offering all the money they've got.

	21-09-2002 03:08									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Aggie We could buy the american worker for hard cash and turn around an sell them the tech, since the have more cash we probably could get it all. Aggie

They're already offering us all the money they've got. We can't squeeze anything more out of them.

	21-09-2002 04:02									#9
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i think someone has made this complaint before.....

don't use lytons outside of RP? yeah....

doesnt bother me of course

the deals arent that great.... but its better WE be making the profits now rather than another civ making them later

and besides, the profits will lessen as they get closer to these techs. so no time better than the present to sell sell sell

	21-09-2002 06:58									#10
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Is 41 gold all we can get?

	21-09-2002 07:19									#11
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I say wait a few turns (although buy the american worker if we can). Then see if we get more. We need money, but not chairity, yet.

	21-09-2002 15:07									#12
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Actually, it would have been better if the Iroquois had any Iron+Horses, so they would become more of a threat to Rome. They are just too small and far off to be a threat to us.

The only danger I see in this: they might trade Chivalry away to some other Civ. Are there any 'big' Civs who do not have Chivalry yet?

Does an American slave actually work twice as fast as other slaves because of the Industriousness?

Caution with the French: they might be small, but so are mosquitos...

	21-09-2002 15:31									#13
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I'll relate to some points raised in this thread:

Q: Is 41 gold all we can get?
A: Yes. But as they say, beggers can't be choosers. We're in dire need for cash to complete military upgrades!

Q: Shouldn't we wait a few more turns?
A: And allow those civs to complete research themselves and lose the trade option altogether? No, I say do it now.

Q: Are there any major players who don't have Chivalry or Monotheism (the techs we're trading off) yet?
A: No.

Q: Do the French pose a threat?
A: Not any more than the Americans do.
The French are peaceful (AI aggression level of 1 out of 5) so they don't build many military units. They depend on us for their supply of horses, dyes and wines. They've lost over half of their production capability, while we doubled ours.

Last edited by Shiber on 21-09-2002 at 19:25

	21-09-2002 17:05									#14
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Shiber, your plan could wait for... let's say, three or four turns? I mean, the other civs will have more cash. Three or four turns can allow someone to complete the research of those techs? If you see no problems, could be a good compromise and the American part of plan still doable. All plan, in fact.

	21-09-2002 17:45									#15
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This plan has my stamp of approval.

My only issue is that I was going to suggest waiting 3 turns, but would we then still get the worker? Perhaps, also, a civ might buy or discover these techs anyhow. Seems a risk we don't need to take.

	21-09-2002 18:05									#16
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We can't wait.
Some are saying that if we wait three or four turns those civs will have more gold to offer. Well, how do you know? It's more likely that once they have over 20 gold they'll hurry some project or buy a world map or something, and it's very possible that they'll get Monotheism and Chivalry by then too.
Waiting is too risky. To wait and risk losing our trade option altogether for the slim chance that those civs will be able to scrap off a few more coins in three or four turns seems unwise to me.

	21-09-2002 18:07									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Thud This plan has my stamp of approval. My only issue is that I was going to suggest waiting 3 turns, but would we then still get the worker? Perhaps, also, a civ might buy or discover these techs anyhow. Seems a risk we don't need to take.

If we could wait some turns, better. If not, as said by Thud and Shiber, let's go for it right now!

Your plan is good, Shiber, as always.

	21-09-2002 18:08									#18
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Ninot: yes, you're right. I'll use gold instead of lytons next time.
Thud: you mean you ministers actually get your own stamps? Can I have one too? Pleeeeease?

	21-09-2002 18:58									#19
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I agree in general with this plan, but have a few specific comments about each part. Basically, though, it boils down to that I think we probably COULD wait -- Civs aren't burning money that fast, and I've seen the AI with over twenty gold.

America:
In the past, has had a reasonable amount of gold. They're not likely to get it from another civ, considering their lack of substantial money, not likey to get themselves, considering they have no infastructure -- we might loose the sixteen gold if they spend it next turn, but we're not likely to loose much else, and I think a little bit of risk is worth it when we're talking about such little gold, especially when we could be talking about a 50% increase by waiting a few turns.

Iroquois: They are a charity civ, but the deal's barely worth it. If we care that much about relations with them, or want to make sure they're prepared when someone declares war on them, then we could make it a gift. If not, I guess we COULD sell it now, but in this case I see no disadvantage to waiting three turns and seeing where they are. If they've got another ten gold, then the deal's worth a little bit. If they've lost it all, then we're talking about gifting it anyway.

Babylon: Small deal, but they pose no threat to anyone... again, I'd personally wait a turn or two and see if we can't get an extra few gold out of them.

France: Not sure if I'd give them Chivilary for nothing... if they have a chance, I think they will attack us later. Also, we know France stockpiles cash -- we took twenty gold from them last turn, and I think we've done deals with them where they've given us up to forty (though that was probably back when we were paying them gpt). Again, my gut feeing is to wait -- we're not talking much loss, and if they get another ten gold then it'd be more worth it.

Basically, I'd wait a turn or two and then see where we are for all the Civs. My way of thinking is that we don't loose much if any one civ blows all their money (two turns later they'll have as much money as they do now, and we can try again), and they're not likely to get the techs on their own (no one else'll give it to them, and Babylon is the only civ who I could see researching it themselves. France might be able to do it too -- I don't know how much we hurt their science capacity during our war.)

-- adaMada

	21-09-2002 19:36									#20
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quote: Originally posted by adaMada not likey to get themselves, considering they have no infastructure

First of all, they're a Republic so they make extra gold.
Second, we're in Emperor so AIs get a discount of 25% on the cost of techs in beakers, meaning they research a lot faster than you think.
Third, they've been researching for about 25-30 turns now so it's very possible that they'll get Monotheism within the next few turns and then we'll lose 16 gold and a worker.

quote: Originally posted by adaMada ...and I think a little bit of risk is worth it when we're talking about such little gold, especially when we could be talking about a 50% increase by waiting a few turns.

Or a 100% decrease if we run out of luck. We're betting a 50% increase against losing it all where the chances for either are equal!

quote: Originally posted by adaMada Babylon: Small deal, but they pose no threat to anyone... again, I'd personally wait a turn or two and see if we can't get an extra few gold out of them.

And I'd bet they have libraries already.

quote: Originally posted by adaMada if they have a chance, I think they will attack us later.

When is later? When we have Cavalry?
Furthermore, do you seriously think that the AIs are so disobedient to their own programming that a nation with the lowest possible aggression level and which depends on us for the supply of two luxuries and a crucial strategic resource and has the production capability of roughly one fifth of what we have, will declare war on us?

quote: Originally posted by adaMada Also, we know France stockpiles cash

We do?
Unless you come up with any solid proof that AIs follow a distinct policy of spending money throughout the game you can't prove anything like that.

Look adaMada, I'm really sorry for being rather rude here but I just didn't expect such nonsense from you. You usually act as the voice of reason and base your conclusions with facts and figures.

	21-09-2002 20:53									#21
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Shiber,

America:

quote: Originally posted by Shiber First of all, they're a Republic so they make extra gold. Second, we're in Emperor so AIs get a discount of 25% on the cost of techs in beakers, meaning they research a lot faster than you think. Third, they've been researching for about 25-30 turns now so it's very possible that they'll get Monotheism within the next few turns and then we'll lose 16 gold and a worker.

America may be worth it -- it's the only one I'd consider right now, since they do have enough money to perhaps make a small gain. I'm not sure how long they've been researching it, and it is possible they'll get it in the near future -- I don't know.

quote: Or a 100% decrease if we run out of luck. We're betting a 50% increase against losing it all where the chances for either are equal![quote] Yes, that's very true. Having said that, we're talking about loosing between six and ten gold, with the exception of the America deal. As Togas pointed out, it costs Eighty Gold to upgrade a Knight, and we make something in the relm of thirty gold per turn if I remember correctly (I'm guessing, since I don't know how much we're making while we pay for the Chiv. deal, but it should be something in the area of thirty to fourty gold). If we can get another five gold out of each Civ by waiting a few turns, we'd be adding twenty gold to the plan, and then it'd be worth a lot more to us. I'm not saying we can add five gold per civ, but I don't see a major loss if we gamble and fail, especially considering that we're not likely to fail with all the civs. Babylon: [quote]And I'd bet they have libraries already.

Probably -- I did make note of the fact that Babylon may be able to


France attacking us:

quote: When is later? When we have Cavalry? Furthermore, do you seriously think that the AIs are so disobedient to their own programming that a nation with the lowest possible aggression level and which depends on us for the supply of two luxuries and a crucial strategic resource and has the production capability of roughly one fifth of what we have, will declare war on us?

I'm not necessarially saying that I believe that France will attack us in the near future. What I am saying is that I believe we're giving them something for practically nothing. Also, I do believe that France would go to war with us if another civ offers them enough cash for it and if they're not tied down with any Trade deals, considering how much they hate us.

Re: Stockpiling cash

quote: We do? Unless you come up with any solid proof that AIs follow a distinct policy of spending money throughout the game you can't prove anything like that.

This is one thing I can speak for. I don't know why the AI was holding on to money, but I've been running trade after trade through the Diplo. screen for the past two weeks, and they haven't always been spending it as soon as they get to twenty gold. They've almost had thirty at times, and IIRC we once got 40 gold out of France. Now, to be perfectly fair and honest, some of this was during the time when we were paying France gpt, and that may have affected things, but I can vouch that the AI (specifically France) hasn't always been using all their cash every time they get twenty gold. I can't say that this'll continue on into the future, or even that they won't use all their money next turn -- I acknolwedge that you're much better at game mechanics than I am, and I simply don't know. Having said that, the AI hasn't always followed that pattern in the recent past.

quote: Look adaMada, I'm really sorry for being rather rude here but I just didn't expect such nonsense from you. You usually act as the voice of reason and base your conclusions with facts and figures.

I have a great deal of respect for you, your planning ability, and your understanding of game mechanics. I also didn't word my last post that well either, and we may not have been communicating clearly. Having said that, I think that (in general) this specific trade would be giving away a lot and not getting much back. When we're talking about picking up eight gold for a modern tech, I'm personally inclined to hang on a bit, risk loosing the eight gold, but trying to get a more substantial sum. We could probably call it a difference in playing styles, but there it is.

Again, to clarify, and taking into account what you've just said, here's my updated and revised stances on each trade deal:

America: Should be considered. I think we could get a bit more gold out of them, but sixteen gold way help in some way.

Iroquois: I think that waiting a turn or two, we probably could get more gold out of them. If we want to give it to them because their a Charity Civ, then that's fine, but if we're expecting to turn a profit, then wait another turn or two (it's a small risk).

Babylon: I don't know that we can wait much longer on them. If 9 gold is worth anything, we should take it.

France: Don't like the idea of giving them any military advantage. If I'm alone in this, then give 'em what they want (though I'd still wait another turn or two for it).

-- adaMada

	21-09-2002 20:56									#22
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Not sure why this issue is so divisive, but the MoE approves any and all tech sales during this turn, with the intent that they go to upgrading one (1) knight.

	21-09-2002 21:03									#23
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adaMada, it's too bad I couldn't persuade you to change your mind about this but it's a free world (if you forget about Majestic 12 and Echelon for a second ) and you're entitled to your own opinion.
I think we've both stated our opinions very clearly. Now it's up to the ministers to decide upon this.

	21-09-2002 21:10									#24
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Agreed .

I wouldn't have any problems with this plan, just for the record -- I just think we can do better, and give away a lot.

I guess we'll just see what Togas decides . (Since Thud and Reddawg have already signed off on it.)

-- adaMada

	22-09-2002 00:21									#25
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I'm stunned to see so much debate about such a small amount of money. Shiber, my friend, you need to pick your battles! No need to be so defensive and go after ada like that. Even if we went with all of these suggestions, we couldn't even afford to upgrade to a knight or hurry production for a temple.

I'd like to get that American worker to replace the one we gave Rome. American workers are semi-industrious, and they work faster than our other slaves. They're also good at Jungle Ball. Might be the running back of the future in there for the Apolytonia Archers.

I seriously doubt America will get the tech in the next few turns, they might very well move the worker out of their capitol, so I'm going to authorize that deal despite the small profit. We'll have other chances to bleed them dry of cash in the future.

Trade deal approved for America

As for the Iriquois, they're not going to learn Chivalry in the next few turns, and we're the only fools who will sell it to them for nothing.

Wait a few turns, then sell to Iriquois.

As for Babylon, they're a culture/science civ that researches well despite their small size. My guess is that they will avoid this dead-end tech and climb the tree towards more culturally useful techs. We may be able to trade them Chivalry later for a tech we don't have. There is a risk they will develop it first themselves, but for only 9 gold, I'll take that risk.

No trade at this time with Babylon, unless they give us tech.

As for France, they may also avoid Chivalry to get a useful tech we could trade to them. Given their attitude and ANY civ's propensity to take a bribe and foolishly get into a war, and given their attitude, I don't want to GIVE France a war tech, but I'll trade it to them for value. I'm betting they'll either get Theology or more gold later on, so a trade later is worth the risk of a very small amount of gold now.

No trade at this time with France, unless they give us tech.

--Togas

Edited to reflect change in policy

Last edited by Togas on 22-09-2002 at 01:06

	22-09-2002 00:53									#26
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I urge you to change your attitude towards the deal with France to "No trade unless they offer another tech in exchange".

	22-09-2002 01:03									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber I urge you to change your attitude towards the deal with France to "No trade unless they offer another tech in exchange".

I'll go ahead and do that for now. We'll check later on to see if they're willing to pay more, but most likely we'll stick to this policy. Eventually either France of Baby will skip Chiv for Theology and we'll be able to work out a good trade with them.

Actually, I'll make one more change to my turnchat orders. I'm going to add that if we can trade Chiv for Theology at any time during the chat, we'll do it.

--Togas

	22-09-2002 01:23									#28
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Theology or Engineering.

	22-09-2002 04:04									#29
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shouldnt we sell chivary to all civ since ai swaps techs whenever they can anyway