21-09-2002 20:15									#1
	Alexander The Not-So-Great??? Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I was in the official civ3 site downloading the fansite kit, when I decided to check the civ profiles. Paying almost no attendion to the american civ (first civ's page to pop out) i selected the Greeks. After having read the whole text, I couldn't believe what the people of Firaxis were saying about the Greeks. They don't take anything seriously and the content is offensive, at least for me. It lacks seriousness. It even has a link to a site named "History House-an irrelevant history magazine(!!!)" that's completely out of place. Having checked the other civs, the content on their pages was just as it should be.

I don't know what to say. Plz spend a couple of minutes or so and read the civ description (and the text of the link it provides). And tell me your opinion. Am i mistaken...?

	21-09-2002 20:29									#2
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Hmmm, the style is definitely different. I wouldn't be surprised if the descriptions weren't written by one person.

	21-09-2002 20:35									#3
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The Greeks and the Egyptians were the first two Civs written, and at that time I was writing them with a definite ear towards humor. The later civs were almost exclusively pulled from the Civilopedia texts. Since we went roughly chrolonogically, The Americans were basically the last civ to be written.

I would have liked to lampoon all of them, but it ended up taking a lot longer than I expected.

Dan

	21-09-2002 23:20									#4
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You did? Strange. When I visited the Civ3 site before the game was released, the description was completely different. Basically the description texts are the same ones like in civilipedia....but what the link has to do in the description? it leads to a less-than-serious site with-not-so-hilarious content.

	22-09-2002 01:36									#5
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Athitis, you repeated yourself. The man said he did it and meant it as a joke. If it is not funny to you thats fine, but really it is only a game, let it go.

	22-09-2002 01:50									#6
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Yes u right. sry!

	23-09-2002 11:51									#7
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Hey Everybody, Alexander was freaking Macedonian!!!.

He only employed greek mercenaries and they made up only 30-40% of his total armies.

Does the description mention this?.

	23-09-2002 12:06									#8
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* MarkG refuses the temptation to answer on whether Alexander was a freaking non-Greek Macedonian

	23-09-2002 14:04									#9
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Well Mark, to the other Greeks of the time Alexandre's father was a barbarian and not a Greek. So I can see why people might be confused.

	23-09-2002 14:16									#10
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In fact Alexander WAS Greek. The Macedonia was(is) greek it just didn't follow the same evolution with the southern city states (Athens, Sparta etc). However he *is*Greek. Even the ancient Geeks allowed him to participate in the Olympics by proving his Greek origin.

The land of the Macedonia north of Greece has nothing to do with him.

	23-09-2002 14:44									#11
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oh well...

quote: Originally posted by Ethelred Well Mark, to the other Greeks of the time Alexandre's father was a barbarian and not a Greek. So I can see why people might be confused.

http://history.macedonia.gr/faq.htm#13

the fact that a single time, a single macedonian was referred by a single athenian as a barbarian at a time of war does not mean that that was the general belief for the all the macedonians....


it is as if i call you an idiot, and someone after lots of years finds this thread he will argue that apolytoners thought Ethelred as an idiot

	23-09-2002 15:01									#12
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I dodn't want to tell you mighty greeks how to suck eggs but....

At the time of Alexander 356-323 BC 'Greece' was a set of 'states' who were almost at perpetual war with each other (Sparta Thrace, Macedon and the several Agean nations).
'Greece' at this time was mainly confined to the Peloponnse.

And as for Alexander taking part in the Olympics are you on acid? when did he do this?, at 16 he succeded his father phillip and went straight to war with the thracians (after beating those guys up he turned towards greece who paid him off) then after a breather he went after the persians... so i guees between this he put on a tracksuit and did the decathlon?.

The only phrase you could use to describe this area at the time would be Hellenistic but that is more of an economic and cultural term.
This state of affairs lasted right upto the point where 'Greece' as the country was annexed by the Roman Empire. (it may interfere with your ideology but there are the facts)

So in the terms of modern Greece yes he is 'greek' but at the time of Alexander the distiction was much more pronounced.

I have the greatest respect for greek culture having studied it in depth for many years as part of my MA and i certainly am not trying to be little it, but i have to point out the world was slightly different in them days.

'My words are backed by an education'

	23-09-2002 15:46									#13
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without a rant...

quote: At the time of Alexander 356-323 BC 'Greece' was a set of 'states'

with the same language, gods, names, culture, etc, etc, etc....

quote: who were almost at perpetual war with each other

not always and of course they were united in common causes(persian wars)....

quote: when did he do this?, at 16 he succeded his father phillip

actually, he was 20(336BC, born in 356BC)

and it wasnt Alexander the Great that took part in the Olympics, but Alexander I (ruled 498-454BC)

	23-09-2002 16:00									#14
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As far as being united for common causes, the unity always came at a price, usually monetary.

Lets not forget the battle of marathon, how late were Greek 'allies' the spartans? answer : very!

And I stand corrected i mixed up the first military command under alexander and the point where he was declared regent after the assinantion of Phillip II.

anyway he was from Macedon. nyah pokes tongue out

'My words are backed with random dates'

	23-09-2002 17:11									#15
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG the fact that a single time, a single macedonian was referred by a single athenian as a barbarian at a time of war does not mean that that was the general belief for the all the macedonians....

Well I will buy it that the contemporary Greeks didn't call Phillip a barbarian. However, he is STILL called Phillip the Barbarian much of the time. I am only saying that I can see why others are confused about it.

However if you had posted a link for THIS Macedonian site about Phillip you would see a somewhat different point of view.

http://www.mymacedonia.net/history/philip.htm

quote: it is as if i call you an idiot, and someone after lots of years finds this thread he will argue that apolytoners thought Ethelred as an idiot

I have been called an idiot here allready. You are too late.

	23-09-2002 17:17									#16
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quote: As far as being united for common causes, the unity always came at a price, usually monetary.

so every nationality in the world today is at the state it is, only because the people of that nationality had similar economic interests?

quote: Lets not forget the battle of marathon, how late were Greek 'allies' the spartans?

well that's the difference between a nation of city-states and a nation with a centrified goverment....

	23-09-2002 17:29									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Ethelred Well I will buy it that the contemporary Greeks didn't call Phillip a barbarian.

good

quote: However, he is STILL called Phillip the Barbarian much of the time.

please find me more than one quote

quote: However if you had posted a link for THIS Macedonian site about Phillip you would see a somewhat different point of view.

1) history is about facts not opinions
2) second, that's not a macedonian page, it's a "macedonian" page(yeap the quote marks are necessary), and it's not "a different view" but a collection of half-truths(also called propaganda)

example:
For instance, Herodotus, relates how the Macedonian king Alexander I (498-454 BC) ... wanted to take a part in the Olympic games. The Greek athletes protested, saying they would not run with a barbarian.
the author forgot to say that according to Herodotus, Alexander proved his Greek(Argive to be exact, btw there is an city called Argos Orestikon in Macedonia and one called Argos in Peloponnesus) origin and DID in fact take part in the games.

So please check your references first before posting a link

quote: I have been called an idiot here allready. You are too late.

that doesnt mean that you ARE an idiot though

calling you an idiot today in order to insult you and turn people against you is the same as calling an ancient greek a barbarian....

	23-09-2002 20:11									#18
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG 1) history is about facts not opinions

Read "opinions accepted as facts."
And who is it that "accepts the facts?" As a gross example: If Hitler had won WWII, how would history previous to WWII have been "rewritten"? After it was rewritten it STILL would have been the true "history".

As it is today, history varies with who is presenting it. Who knows what "facts" have been totally skewed or buried in my (or your) present view of history?

When/if George W. invades Iraq, be assured that strong evidence will be found of "weapons of mass destruction" and that will become part of history. Regardless of whether they actually exist. Especially regarding wars, the winner writes the history.

	23-09-2002 22:42									#19
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at least you will agree JayBe that history is about fully taking into account the sources in their whole, and not keeping the parts that we like, as shown in the example from the page Ethelred gave

	23-09-2002 22:57									#20
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG at least you will agree JayBe that history is about fully taking into account the sources in their whole, and not keeping the parts that we like, as shown in the example from the page Ethelred gave

\

As in your example as well. Or pehaps I missed them mentioning the athletes calling Alexander I a barbarian at Olymplia.

Besides Philip had a beard. So he was a barbarian on his face.

	23-09-2002 23:10									#21
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ok good.
you found two examples in a time span of 150 years that a Macedonian was accused of being a barbarian
in both cases it was not for a reason other than self-interest, but what anyway...

clap, clap, clap

	23-09-2002 23:31									#22
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Self-interest is always involved in calling someone a barbarian so that doesn't invalidate anything.


What you think only Macedonians have been called barbarian? I live in Southern California. We export barbarism. McDonald's for instance.

	24-09-2002 01:23									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Ethelred \ Besides Philip had a beard. So he was a barbarian on his face.

Wrong. Most ancient greeks had beards.

I am sorry to have triggered such an upleasant conversation( if you could name it one). I feel even worst when people say they have the books and are not affected by propaganda too. But the worst part are when they are not willing to listen to you. What's all this anger and hatred when it comes to the Greeks? I have not a read single thread not accusing them of something (other than a Greek's of course)!

	24-09-2002 01:49									#24
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quote: Wrong. Most ancient greeks had beards.

Hey! What are you trying to do? Bring facts into this?

quote: But the worst part are when they are not willing to listen to you. What's all this anger and hatred when it comes to the Greeks? I have not a read single thread not accusing them of something (other than a Greek's of course)!

What anger? What hatred? The way you are talking we must all be Turks.

Perhaps you should try some different threads. I can assure you that there are gobs more Amerca bashing threads. Lots of Canada bashing and general Euro bashing as well.

Besides Alexander looks consitipated in Civ III. Isn't that enough reason to bash him?

	24-09-2002 02:11									#25
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ok, lets end this thread before it gets too silly

at least i think we all agree that the artist that did Alexander in civ3 was sleeping during history lessons...