21-09-2002 21:35									#1
	Urgent! Need to think about before next turnchat! Tired of ads?

Togas had wanted me to look into Trade Implecations for the next five turns and I found something that needs to be addressed Immediately! I sent Togas a PM about this, but I think i read in a post that he'll be late for the turnchat because of RL.

We NEED to renegotiate our Peace Treaty with Germany this turn! If not we'll be losing 8LPT income from them. We can renegotiate for 7LPT & 14 Lytons. This needs to be addressed Immediately!

I also recommended for him to Renegotiate our Peace Treaty with America for a Worker; WM & 16 Lytons.

Someone needs to take action with this. Togas has offered me a job with the FM, and I've tentitively taken it, depending on duel version installes (Done) and seting up IRC and working with them both at same time with my PII-400 (still working on); so this is a tentitively official post.

E_T

	21-09-2002 22:01									#2
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E_T,
I have only the 1.29 installed. It's impossible to me verify what they could offer renegociating peace without do the deal! I had to "Ctrl+Del" the game to avoid play ahead. Are your numbers estimatives? Is it possible in 1.21 or...?
Sorry to ask, but "No playing ahead" is our most important rule.

	21-09-2002 22:02									#3
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E_T,
We may not be able to avoid loosing that source of income from Germany -- if we make that eight lpt per turn manditory, they may go to war instead of taking it.

Wait a sec... did you just say that you've checked, and they'll accept a renegotiation of the same Peace treaty for 7 LPT and 14 lytons? I'd never have guessed that....

If so, let's do it! Togas'll probably be on sometime, and I'm sure he'll add that to his orders without much of an arguement . As for the America deal, we may be planning war with them in the near future, so it'd probably be better to not renegotiate our peace with them, and just let it expire quietly -- the 16 lytons and worker isn't worth much.

Just a few quick thoughts... Very good eye, E_T -- we almost missed that.

-- adaMada

EDIT: Am I right in saying that the Turnchat's tomorrow? If so, Togas'll probably be on at least once before it happens, and he can write it into his orders.

	21-09-2002 22:20									#4
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Very good eye, E_T... I agree. But...

quote: Originally posted by adaMada E_T, ....... Wait a sec... did you just say that you've checked, and they'll accept a renegotiation of the same Peace treaty for 7 LPT and 14 lytons? I'd never have guessed that.... ........

That's my point. In 1.29, we can't check the renegotiation of a peace treaty before it ends WITHOUT COMPLETE THE DEAL. Is different in 1.21? Or did you used the "Ctrl+Del" to exit the game?
Sorry again to ask this, E_T, I'm just worried.

	21-09-2002 22:36									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Aro Very good eye, E_T... I agree. But... That's my point. In 1.29, we can't check the renegotiation of a peace treaty before it ends WITHOUT COMPLETE THE DEAL. Is different in 1.21? Or did you used the "Ctrl+Del" to exit the game? Sorry again to ask this, E_T, I'm just worried.

You can double install with both 1.21f & 1.29f. It's really easy:

1) make a new folder Named CivIII 1_21f Demo Game
2) Copy everything in regular Civ folder to it
3) Install over top of it (in the new folder) 1.21f
4) make a shortcut with a different name and place on your desktop
5) make any changes to the ini file that need to be don (i.e. KeepRes=1).

Your done. It was simpler than I thought it would be. Also, if a new patch comes out, you can just install it in the regular civ folder.

E_T

	21-09-2002 22:37									#6
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[EDIT}: Double post

Last edited by E_T on 21-09-2002 at 22:48

	21-09-2002 22:46									#7
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quote: Originally posted by adaMada E_T, We may not be able to avoid loosing that source of income from Germany -- if we make that eight lpt per turn manditory, they may go to war instead of taking it. Wait a sec... did you just say that you've checked, and they'll accept a renegotiation of the same Peace treaty for 7 LPT and 14 lytons? I'd never have guessed that....

Yes, that's one of the things that Togas want me to keep track of.

quote: If so, let's do it! Togas'll probably be on sometime, and I'm sure he'll add that to his orders without much of an arguement . As for the America deal, we may be planning war with them in the near future, so it'd probably be better to not renegotiate our peace with them, and just let it expire quietly -- the 16 lytons and worker isn't worth much.

Don't we need as many workers as we can get, we've got a LOT of Jungle still to clear, plus we don't have to pay his upkeep. THe Lytons would almost double our Treasury as it currently stands and make up for the lose of the 14 Lytons in the German Peace deal. I tried to negotiate for 6LPT & change, but they wouldn't have it. 6LPT = 120 Lytons over 20 turns, 7LPT for 14 Lytons = 126 Lytons over 20 Turns; 6 lytons differnce. We are having a cashflow problem right now.

quote: Just a few quick thoughts... Very good eye, E_T -- we almost missed that. -- adaMada EDIT: Am I right in saying that the Turnchat's tomorrow? If so, Togas'll probably be on at least once before it happens, and he can write it into his orders.

I had thought that it was today. Good, it gives me anouther day to get IRC setup on my box.

E_T

	21-09-2002 22:57									#8
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This is something that E_T brought to me in the briefing this morning and it will be included in the next turn orders. However, I have one question for the public.

We may be able to include Theology in the renegotiated peace deal instead of the current GPT deal. I've asked E_T to get back to me on the cost difference if we got Theology, because if we did we'd actually be paying Germany instead of them paying us, which will also have an adverse effect on the budget.

ALSO, renegotiating peace deals is something that I've never seen discussed here. It's clearly possible from the diplomacy screen. Are there any other players out there who've previously used this tactic? I'm curious. This insight by E_T could be a wonderful boon for our nation.

--Togas

	21-09-2002 23:02									#9
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EDIT: Forget it, I was wrong (I ran a mock game to prove it too).

Last edited by Shiber on 22-09-2002 at 00:06

	21-09-2002 23:07									#10
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

It'a almost as much as buying the tech outright from anyone. Besides, in 20 turns, we should have the Persian conflict fairly much over with and we can send troops to their borders and negotiate from a position of strength.

As for America, I beleave that they are loosing the war with the Aztecs. The Aztecs have most undoubtedly had a GA from this war and will probibly take out the Americans. So we should get from them while the getting is good.

E_T

	21-09-2002 23:19									#11
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quote: Originally posted by adaMada EDIT: Am I right in saying that the Turnchat's tomorrow?

At what time is the chat? It's probably been said in another thread, but I can find it anymore. I keep getting lost in this forum.

	21-09-2002 23:32									#12
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OK, I've just finished reviewing this option and it is a valid option. We would go into active deals, click on the deal itself (the peace deal) and it allows you to "renegotiate" the deal, like you would any other deal. Our Foreign Advisor Avatar assured me that they would accept the new offer.

As an interesting note. If we DO NOT come to an agrement during the renegotiation, the game asks you if you want to declare war. Therefore, if you choose to renegotiate, the two sides must come to an agreement on new peace terms.

The deal will be renegotiated with Germany. We won't renegotiate with America (we'll sell them tech instead) because we may want to attack them in less than 20 turns, and I don't want to break a treaty.

As for Theology:

We can get it for free from Persia.
It we don't need it immediately
Including it in peace doesn't drop the price signifigantly (we would have to pay them 19L and 20 LPT, far more than the budget would allow)
A nation that is without Chivalry (France, Babylon) may learn it, allowing us to trade Chivalry for Theology and pay a smaller sum for it.

--Togas

Last edited by Togas on 21-09-2002 at 23:38

	21-09-2002 23:59									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Togas OK, I've just finished reviewing this option and it is a valid option. We would go into active deals, click on the deal itself (the peace deal) and it allows you to "renegotiate" the deal, like you would any other deal. Our Foreign Advisor Avatar assured me that they would accept the new offer. As an interesting note. If we DO NOT come to an agrement during the renegotiation, the game asks you if you want to declare war. Therefore, if you choose to renegotiate, the two sides must come to an agreement on new peace terms. The deal will be renegotiated with Germany. We won't renegotiate with America (we'll sell them tech instead) because we may want to attack them in less than 20 turns, and I don't want to break a treaty.

I really don't think that we will be done with the war with Persia before the 20 turns will have run out. If so, we'll still be consolidating our holdings and moving our troops back to a position to actually threaten Germany (our word are backed with Knights!) within the time frame. Also, if they declare war on us, They will be the ones that have broken the deal, not us.

quote: As for Theology: We can get it for free from Persia. It we don't need it immediately Including it in peace doesn't drop the price signifigantly (we would have to pay them 19L and 20 LPT, far more than the budget would allow) A nation that is without Chivalry (France, Babylon) may learn it, allowing us to trade Chivalry for Theology and pay a smaller sum for it. --Togas

We need to petition the SMC to send a few troops to Hamadan and have them ready to threaten it when we do demand our Peace Terms with the Persians. We can get a better deal if we ARE still ready to attack compared to being half a contenent away.

In my current game, I was at war with Japan. I had taken all but one of their cities, but wasn't currently treatening it. The deal that I could get wasn't satisfactory enough, so I continued for one more two more turns. As soon as I was ACTIVELY threatening their last city, I got some really good Peace terms.

We might need a RoP with America to do that. I've investigated the possibility and found that we can get the RoP for the same price as Renegotiating Peace with them, i.e. Worker, WM & 16 Lytons. This will allow us to save the Peace Negotiation with America at a later Date.

E_T

	22-09-2002 00:10									#14
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quote: Originally posted by E_T As for America, I beleave that they are loosing the war with the Aztecs. The Aztecs have most undoubtedly had a GA from this war and will probibly take out the Americans. So we should get from them while the getting is good. E_T

E_T,
As the Americans are getting hurt badly by the Aztecs, it's my belief that we may WANT to declare war in the near future. Either way, I'd personally be against resigning peace with them right now -- aren't we allowed to just leave the standing peace treaty, so we're not at war but don't get a major rep. hit by declaring war on them?

-- adaMada

EDIT: Sounds like Togas has already decided. to his decision .

	22-09-2002 00:58									#15
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E_T,
The plan is very good, in the case of Germany.
About America, there's almost a consensus; we need to finish them before the Aztecs. We don’t should renegotiate.

Btw, I’m sorry by my misunderstood about the peace treaties. If Togas don’t see anything wrong in checking for peace deals (he’s a lawyer, was a judge and is a minister! Do I need more? ), I don’t see anything wrong too:

quote: Originally posted by Togas As an interesting note. If we DO NOT come to an agrement during the renegotiation, the game asks you if you want to declare war. Therefore, if you choose to renegotiate, the two sides must come to an agreement on new peace terms.

And thanks for the instructions about the dual installation. I’ll try.

	22-09-2002 03:55									#16
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Et I really can't spare the troops from persia to go north to that city. If we can convince people to build more knights then we could(though I would just wipe out america first then threaten the persians up there.
Aggie

	22-09-2002 05:37									#17
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NO ROPs!

Period.

	22-09-2002 05:55									#18
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good job noticing such important issue there E_T.... whos in charge of trade department here eh? Do we even have a department that monitors domestic/foreign trade status?

	22-09-2002 09:44									#19
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Just go for the Theology already. Do you people want a thousand Persian virgins also or something?

	22-09-2002 09:50									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Calc II good job noticing such important issue there E_T.... whos in charge of trade department here eh? Do we even have a department that monitors domestic/foreign trade status?

It's my job as Deputy Minister of Foreign Trade (I liked the title of Deputy Foreign Minister for Trade myself but Togas desided otherwise), to make sure that we don't "miss a beat" in the FM.

I'll try to keep everybody Informed about our Foreign Relations as much as possible.

E_T