22-09-2002 22:19									#31
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My face practically went when I saw pictures depicting tanzim members and police officers shooting into the air, and rallying people around them, while the voice over was an interview with a Palestinian spokesman as he was saying:

"None of the protestors are armed. They are all people who went out freely to show their support of Arafat. Mostly teens and students"

:/

	22-09-2002 22:55									#32
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I have to agree with Haaretz's editorial commeny on this whole thing: Pointless.

All it does is make Arafat relevant, slow down any reforms in the PA while doing nothing to weaken Hamas, which hey, actually carried out the attack. The Israeli govenment has a fixation with Arafat, since it feeds oin their mistaken belief that these last two years were a from the top, organized campaign, without support from all Palestinians. Well, the IDF has done agreat job at browbeating and pounding the Palestinians down, but has faied utterly at making peace more possible. Fine, less Israelis will die, though they certainly will have lousy lives, for as long as the conflict continues Israels economy will continue to falter.

	22-09-2002 23:02									#33
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Terrorist elements must be destroyed. No negoititations can be held with terrorists.

	22-09-2002 23:08									#34
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GePap - nice to know you read haaretz.

Weakening Hamas is done by other means - arrests, destruction of labs and assassinations.

Arafat is a willing accomplice to Hamas's crimes, just like Mulah Omar was to Al-Qaeda.

Mulah Omar packed his bags. It's time for Arafat to follow.

Removing Arafat will merely speed up the Palestinian reforms and democratisation.

If you truely think that there's any chance for true reform while Arafat is in power of 40,000 policemen, and even more Tanzim memembers - i doubt your rational abilities.

If you truely think that there's a chance for a non-Arafat governed rule, in a government made up of Arafat's best friends, even if Arafat himself is given merely a symbolic title - then I again doubt your rational abilities.

Arafat has to go, and there's no one else who can kick him out.

	22-09-2002 23:15									#35
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IDF soldiers built a 3 meters high barbed wire fence around Arafat's building.

	22-09-2002 23:18									#36
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Araft's police have no more facilities- the IDF blew them all up

Arafat was very irrelevant, until two days ago, when the IDF made him relevant

And the big winner currently is Hamas- the IDF would need a very big invasion of Gaza to even try to do the job- obviously the IDF won't if they haven't by now- How come the founder of Hamas gets to sit in his house and have meetings? Thats what i don't get- Hamsa political leadership is left intact, while under Sharon the IDF ha destroyed the PA. That makes no sense unless all Sharon wanted was to destroy the PA and force upon the Palestinian an 'interi' agreement.

Oh, and for jimmy:
Negotiations wih terrorist who will negotiat are amust- borught peace to Northern ireland- this isn't the movies, its real life. Besides, 'terrorits' do become wolrd leader if the succeed- look at Ben Gurion, Begin, or mandela

	22-09-2002 23:20									#37
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Arafat will die sooner or later and nothing is gonna change, Sharon is only increasing the hate against Israel

	23-09-2002 01:11									#38
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quote: Araft's police have no more facilities- the IDF blew them all up

And what is your source on that? I doubt we blew up 50% of their facilities.

If they have no facilities, how could they possibly have gotten new ammo and weapons to fire in the air in the last several days of demonstrations?

About N. Ireland- I seem to recall several terrorists kept on practicing and making weapons "just in case" that were caught earlier this year.

Also, I'd like to again point out your ignorance, and I challenge you to prove when has Ben Gurion ever participated in a terrorist act.

Furthermore, for the most of them, terrorists do not have good intentions. For every mandela, there are ten thousand Bin Ladens.

I challenge your idea that if the IDF hadn't invaded Gaza until this instant, it won't. Infact, what it needs is to soften up the blow.

The founder of Hamas will be deported soon, it was just in the newspapers the other day.

Furthermore - Hamas is less of a problem than the PLO. There are dozens of Hamases and Jihads and PFLPs and such things.

The only way to win against them, is to have a new PA - one which not only doesn't aid terror, but one which fights terror.

What good will ousting Hamas will do, if the current PA is putting thousands of dollars into it's own version of Hamas, the Tanzim-Fatah "Al-Aqsa Martyrs" ??


Waku - great idea. Speaking of which, Milosevic and Mulah Omar will also die of old age sometime in the future - why don't we let them free??

Russians have a joke about this subject. You say that Arafat is ill and will die sooner or later, but I bet he'll catch some illness on your funeral day.

Meaning - he may seem ill, but he might just live longer than you.

	23-09-2002 01:23									#39
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Most of Arafat's family members lived until age 90. Today he's ~75.

He must be killed, dor the sake of the Palestinian children.

	23-09-2002 01:24									#40
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Well, there is the bombing of the King David Hotel, for one- and of course, countless little attacks agaisnt Briotish troops and official, since as we know from israel, attacks even agiainst such targets are terrorist attacks.

As for NI, yes, there are some gorups left armed, but they have peace anyway- may I add the Sri lankan gov. as another gov. willing to negotiate with terrorists (Tamil Tigers) to bring about peace.

Which paeprs speak about deporting Hamas political chiefs? Certainly not haaretz.

Hamas is far more of a problem than the PA_ how many of the last suicide bombings were carried out by factions of fatah? 0. By Hamas or Islamic jihad? all.

And finally, as any israeli shoul now, when under external attack, no society will move towards internal change- so as long as Israel keeps attacking the PA, no palestinians will move to change it- as it would be seen as a sign of giving in to Israeli violence.

	23-09-2002 01:25									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov Waku - great idea. Speaking of which, Milosevic and Mulah Omar will also die of old age sometime in the future - why don't we let them free?? Russians have a joke about this subject. You say that Arafat is ill and will die sooner or later, but I bet he'll catch some illness on your funeral day. Meaning - he may seem ill, but he might just live longer than you.

Sharon's who's making him immortal

I just mean that it's very naive to think that things will get better without Arafat, in fact what you get is less and less international support

	23-09-2002 01:58									#42
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What international support?

	23-09-2002 02:05									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Eli IDF soldiers built a 3 meters high barbed wire fence around Arafat's building.

Your quote kina reminds me of that great line in the movie, "The Magnificient Seven". The villain points to the new wall and trenches that have been built all around the town, and says:
"They will not keep me out!"
and Yul Brenner's character says:
"They are not meant to keep you out. They are meant to keep you in."

	23-09-2002 02:10									#44
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GePapa and Waku, the problem here is that you both are assuming Sharon wants peace.

Just hypothetically, ask yourself 'are these actions logical for a man who wishes to prolong the conflict as much as possible'. I think you'll find that for pretty much every single action Sharon has undertaken since getting into office the answer is 'yes'.

	23-09-2002 02:35									#45
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CG : Is that why he declared that "restraint is power" after the Dolphinarium massacre and did not retaliate on any attacks for a month? Is that why it took him one and a half years and 400 Israeli deaths before he ordered to start operation "Defensive Shield"? Is that why Arafat still lives?

	23-09-2002 02:46									#46
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perhaps he plans the massacres thoroughly

	23-09-2002 02:50									#47
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CG: Totally correct. Sharon is slowly but surely building support for a general war.

	23-09-2002 02:53									#48
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Certainly there can be no peace with a terrorist like Arafat. No peace with terrorist organizations. No peace until arab nations accept the right of Israel to exist. Its going to come down to force of arms.

	23-09-2002 03:00									#49
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Certainly there can be no peace with a terrorist like Sharon. No peace with terrorist countries. No peace until Israel accept the rights of Arabs to be first class citizens. Its going to come down to force of arms.

---

That was fun .

	23-09-2002 03:09									#50
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We are agreed, then.

	23-09-2002 04:27									#51
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'restraint is power'?

And this a few days after he declared that Israel would retaliate against Iraq in case of an attack, even though the US was practically begging for Israel to be calm?

That Sharon occaisonally throws the international opinion a bone should not be confused with morality. Israel plays the propaganda game incredibly well, but even the masters of propaganda needs a gesture of good will every once in a while.

'Master of restraint'... Please. That's like calling Hitler a master of restraint for waiting until 1942 before attacking Russia...

	27-09-2002 03:02									#52
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quote: 'restraint is power'? And this a few days after he declared that Israel would retaliate against Iraq in case of an attack, even though the US was practically begging for Israel to be calm?

Yo've got your dates all wrong.

He said that a year and several months ago.

Just shows how much your views are detached from events.

quote: 'Master of restraint'... Please. That's like calling Hitler a master of restraint for waiting until 1942 before attacking Russia...

Funny, I always thought Hitler attacked in 1941. But then again, my sources must be lying.

Furthermore, USSR was about to attack Hitler and amassing troops for a surprise attack in July. But then again, my sources are obviously slanted.

	27-09-2002 03:24									#53
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quote: Yo've got your dates all wrong. He said that a year and several months ago. Just shows how much your views are detached from events.

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/09/22/i...ast/22ISRA.html

Just shows that you should start reading real news instead of the Daily Hatred or whatever it is you get your stuff from.

quote: Funny, I always thought Hitler attacked in 1941. But then again, my sources must be lying. Furthermore, USSR was about to attack Hitler and amassing troops for a surprise attack in July. But then again, my sources are obviously slanted.

Ah, another classic Siro reply. Can't argue with the actual message, he goes for minute details. Ooooooh, this arguemnt really doesn;t make sense if we replace '1942' with '1941', does it?

Eyes watering from sarcasm again.

	27-09-2002 07:05									#54
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I find it ridiculous that Bush supports a Palestinian State. He will be reforming Iraq #1 while creating Iraq #2. Arafat and Sadam are both terrorists and need to be dealt with as such.

	27-09-2002 07:15									#55
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I find it ridiculous that Bush supports a invading Iraq while not supporting invading Israel.

Sharon and Sadam are both terrorists and need to be dealt with as such.

	27-09-2002 07:53									#56
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quote: Just shows that you should start reading real news instead of the Daily Hatred or whatever it is you get your stuff from.

First, let me congratulate you on your third time to use a source.

Then, I would like you congratulate you on being irrelevant or simply misunderstanding what I was talking about.

quote: 'restraint is power'? And this a few days after he declared that Israel would retaliate against Iraq in case of an attack, even though the US was practically begging for Israel to be calm?

Reading this text would make me think that you believe that the quote 'restraint is power' came "a few days after he declared Israel would..."

However reading Eli's text again, to which you refer:

quote: Is that why he declared that "restraint is power" after the Dolphinarium massacre

We manage to gather that this was said soon after the Dolphinarium massacare.

The Dolphinarium massacare, as you never cared to check your sources for, occured in summer of 2001. That would be a year and a bit ago.

But then again, why bother with such details? You can build a world view from personal opinions alone, right?


In any case -your point is weak, since just because restraint is power, it doesn't mean that it fits all situations. To maintain its detterance, Israel feels it must retaliate in the case of attack.

Just because Sharon doesn't find restraint adivsable in this situation, doesn't mean he is not familiar with the concept, as Eli showed.

quote: Eyes watering from sarcasm again.

You better bring a handcarechief.

Hitler did indeed use restraint, as he wanted to attack Russia even earlier, and some of his generals argues against him. He saw Russia's preparations for a surprise attack, which was indeed in the making.

This makes your comparison irrelevant too.

But hey, my sources are probably lying about this too.

	27-09-2002 08:23									#57
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quote: First, let me congratulate you on your third time to use a source.

Moron.

I've wasted enough time on you. Come back if you have something substantial to say.

	27-09-2002 09:25									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Certainly there can be no peace with a terrorist like Sharon. No peace with terrorist countries. No peace until Israel accept the rights of Arabs to be first class citizens. Its going to come down to force of arms. --- That was fun .

Imran, I don't know where this came from, but real peace appears to be just around the corner. Bush is committed to a Palestinian State. The Arab League is on board. Arafat has agreed to the Clinton Peace Plan. We are only awaiting the elections in January for the final discussions to begin.

There is no need for anyone to fight. People ought to be calling for an end to violence all around. Real leadership will call for an end to violence and peace with Israel.

	27-09-2002 09:27									#60
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quote: We are only awaiting the elections in January for the final discussions to begin.

And what if Arafat or a Hamas leader wins (one of which will happen)?