23-09-2002 10:29									#1
	Public Opinion Poll (Unofficial): The New Great Leader Increase Your PM Length

An Apolytonian Times/ANN (Apolytonia Network News) poll on the issues that matter to YOU. How should we use our new GL?

	23-09-2002 10:52									#2
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Rush Chapel!

This is our only chance to get this incredibly powerful wonder!

The only question to not build it is do we want our GA now, while we are at war?

I would prefer to have GA during peace to build infrastructure, but if we don't use GL for Sistine's we might never get a GA.

Sistine's Chapel now!

	23-09-2002 12:32									#3
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We have just shown that we can get GLs in the course of war - with the number of battles coming up it looks quite likely we will get another one as long as we use the one we have soon (we can't get a GL when we still haven't used the last one).

I say an Army - our forces should be banding together to make best use of the vast experience and knowledge instilled in the rank and file by Sun Tzu's famed title, and embodied in the Top Brass by Aggie. Plus we will gain the option of the Heroic Epic and Military Academy somewhere down the line - and who can pass up the opportunity to improve our chances at getting another GL?

	23-09-2002 12:56									#4
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I'm for passing up on greater "chances" of getting a GL!

We can build an Army anytime to get Heroic Epic/Military Academy.

If we wait much longer, we will never be able to get the Chapel.

	23-09-2002 14:10									#5
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Yes, definately go for Chapel

	23-09-2002 14:31									#6
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The Sistine Chapel is the single most powerful wonder in this game. We can't let it pass!
For those of you who are worried we won't have Theology by the time the leader will reach safety and we'll have to wait with him, think again. We're most likely going to build this wonder in Ubergorsk, which is the only safe city that's close to the front. Transporting the leader through the road system is tempting, but also dangerous - an immortal coming from the north could kill him, and since we don't have any units on that road at all we will not be able to effectively guard the leader.
Therefore, we will have to transport him through the jungle, accompanied by a garrison that will run ahead of him to scout out any persians. This way it will take us 5 turns to get to Ubergorsk, and we'll be able to rush the chapel at the end of these 5 turns. By then we'll be able to buy Theology from Greek for a much discounted price, or we might decide to stop the war after taking Persepolis because we'll meet strong resistance (Persian pikemen and immortals) and we'll get Theology from Persia.

	23-09-2002 17:07									#7
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We NEED the Sistine Chapel. With our huge potential grassland and cheaper cathedrals it is a must have wonder. The only question is can we take the pyramids right now? If not I'd be all for buying Theology.

Can someone with 1.21 find out what Theology would currently cost from the various civ? On 1.29 Greece and England will sell it for 50 gpt and 190 g. How much can we make if we turn around and sell it to the Iroqouis, French, and Americans?

I'd be willing to enter a payment program with the Americans if we're going to take the entire Persian Homeland as that might take around 20 turns and certainly looks attainable now.

	23-09-2002 17:32									#8
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Assuming that we want to preserve our hard cash for military upgrades and improvements and pay only gpt for Theology, the best deal we can currently get is from Greece: 31 gpt for Theology (620 gold over 20 turns).
However, I'm convinced that by the time our great leader reaches Ubergorsk (I assume this is where we would want the wonder since it's the closest city to the front that is safe) through the safe route (see above post) the price will drop to ~25 gpt, or 500 gold over 20 turns.

Btw, if we buy Theology from Greece we'll be able to demand Engineering and *Education* from Persia (I'm 100% sure they already have it. If not they will surely have it by the time we reach peace terms with them).

	23-09-2002 17:46									#9
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Interesting prpposal, Shiber... But the persians will give us Theo and Engineering in a peace deal, without squeeze our budget. We'll take Persepolis in a few turns, and by the time Cheops reaches Ubergorsk (or a little later), we'll be able to build the Sistine.

Edit: typos

Last edited by Aro on 23-09-2002 at 18:06

	23-09-2002 17:48									#10
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I agree...we should grab the Sistine, it is very powerful, especially for a religious society as us-double the effect for half the cost, how can we go wrong. I hate armies, I think they're a waste, your better off just stacking units.

	23-09-2002 17:58									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber Assuming that we want to preserve our hard cash for military upgrades and improvements and pay only gpt for Theology, the best deal we can currently get is from Greece: 31 gpt for Theology (620 gold over 20 turns). However, I'm convinced that by the time our great leader reaches Ubergorsk (I assume this is where we would want the wonder since it's the closest city to the front that is safe) through the safe route (see above post) the price will drop to ~25 gpt, or 500 gold over 20 turns. Btw, if we buy Theology from Greece we'll be able to demand Engineering and *Education* from Persia (I'm 100% sure they already have it. If not they will surely have it by the time we reach peace terms with them).

That's a good plan.

I propose we follow Aggies current strategy of holding Pas-whatever for a few turns. cutting off Persia's connection to England while moving our GL over the roads to Ubergorsk.

The turn Cheops can make it into Ubergorsk we buy Theology from the Greeks and build the Sistine.

Then finish off the Persian homeland.

That way we use the time it takes our GL to get to Ubergorsk to heal up our troops and bring it reinforcements.

	23-09-2002 18:06									#12
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31 gpt is so much, IMHO. After we take Persepolis, we'll have granaries and incense, why not make peace then? We'll have a lot of good land to growth, we'll need time for this.

	23-09-2002 18:30									#13
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This price is partially offset by the new-fangled "renegotiating for peace" deals.

	23-09-2002 19:55									#14
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quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb ...while moving our GL over the roads to Ubergorsk.

If he moves over the roads he is open to attacks by immortals from Antioch. We should do as I proposed and move him directly west, through the jungle and slightly north to where Sidon was because we can be sure there are no Persian units there and most of this route is not covered by fog of war in one side, as opposed to the road route.
I'll post a picture of the proposed route later.

	23-09-2002 20:03									#15
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I haven't a map here and can't confirm it, but leaders have a movement of 3 (or 9 roaded tiles). I can't imagine that Ubergorsk is so far away that it can't be reached in at most 2 turns over the roads.

	23-09-2002 20:15									#16
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Each turn he isn't used is a turn where we can't get anymore GL's. We need to use him ASAP. 5 turns is way too long to be unable to get another GL.

	23-09-2002 20:25									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph I haven't a map here and can't confirm it, but leaders have a movement of 3 (or 9 roaded tiles). I can't imagine that Ubergorsk is so far away that it can't be reached in at most 2 turns over the roads.

Exactly two turns:

	23-09-2002 20:33									#18
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Sir Ralph: you are absolutely correct. He can reach Ubergorsk in two turns with no movement points and then rush at the start of the third turn (so we'll lose two turns of possibilities for a GL). However, it is possible that if he takes this route he'll be open to attack from a Persian unit, possibly an immortal. We don't really know what's in there, the whole area is covered with fog of war!

I'd like to make the following suggestion: first, move the knight that's currently stationed NW NW of Willsbury one tile North. If he sees any Persian units then we'll have to move Cheops through the jungle route*, where there is no fog of war. Otherwise, move him through the road system.

* I believe it will take our friend Cheops five turns to cross the Jungle and reach Ubergorsk and he'll have one movement point left, meaning he'll be able to rush the Chapel that turn, so effectively, we only lose the chances of a GL appearing for four turns. Come to think about it, that's not all bad: our forces will be completely healed and at the doorstep of Persepolis in four turns, so if we just tell them to fortify for one turn near Persepolis we won't lose the chance of getting a GL from the assault on Persepolis.

	23-09-2002 20:40									#19
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A bit shorter, even, when Cheops takes the Eastern Willsburian Ringroad.

	23-09-2002 20:45									#20
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Interesting. The Shortest Path Algorithm used to determine Cheops' route chooses the Willsbury Soccer Field (E - NE of W.) over the Eastern Ringroad (E of W.). Is this because of the forest and the border ?

	23-09-2002 20:46									#21
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I was planning on moving the knights that are s of tyre to the spot 2e of tyre,that is where they can meet the GL, also a sword will be there so the unit will be safe.
Aggie

	23-09-2002 20:57									#22
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My suggestion is as follows:
The route that Aro has plotted is perfectly fine, IF we know that it's also safe. I propose to move the knight that is stationed NW NW of Willsbury one tile North (into the 1 mark, where the leader will finish its first turn of movement). If it sees ANY Persian units then we must take the Jungle route (see my attached map; yes, I know it's ugly). Otherwise, we can safely take the road route.

	23-09-2002 21:03									#23
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Why don't we rush the Sistine in Willsbury? Are we fearing to lose this city, or are there plans to disband it?

	23-09-2002 21:18									#24
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Hmm... It's only one turn more, right? If this is safer I agree, Shiber.

Sir Ralph: I am fearing to loose the city, but I don't know if the odds are against us or not. Now, the city has 7 entertainers and is in civil disorder.
Btw, if we rush the Sistine in Willsbury, the culture can prevent the flipping, is it right? Could be a good idea...
Note: we have civil disorder in AGC, too.

	23-09-2002 21:22									#25
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It is too close to Persia's cultural power base. We can't risk a flip.

	23-09-2002 21:27									#26
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According to the culture flipping formula it is unlikely to flip, if it has, say, 2 units garrison. There's only 1 tile of its 21-tile radius occupied by persia. The Sistine yields 6 culture points. After 2 turns the borders expand and the city would be 100% flipsafe.

	23-09-2002 21:36									#27
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UberGorsk is only 2 turns away via the roads (unless I am missing something, like a break in the road network). One turn gets the leader quite near a number of other units for protection. I don't think there is a need to tramp through the Jungle.

Aro, Willsbury only has 2 citizens, and is not all that close to the 'Persian cultural center', Especially since that center is about to be crushed.

Re: taking Persiopolis. We cannot simply rush and take it then sue for peace. IT IS in the very center of the Persian Culture, and will definately flip. If we expect to keep the Pyramids, we must plan on taking/razing Baktra and Susa at the very least. And if the capital goes to Tarsas, we should take that too to be safe. Arbela could be easily taken at this point to give us yet another lux as well. Then Persia is as good as dead with three cities spread across the continent.

	23-09-2002 21:45									#28
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You're right, UnOrthO, I was thinking about Pasargadae... Blame my proverbial lack of neurons...

	23-09-2002 22:08									#29
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UnOrthOdOx: I prefer the road route as well, but I advise the government not to move the leader through it before the knight NW NW of Willsbury scouts ahead to see if there are any Persian units adjacent to the tile where the leader will finish his first turn of movement.
If we don't do this and the leader will end up near a Persian immortal then we're all going to be REALLY sorry.

Sir Ralph: Could you please disclose the formula that you speak of? I think it would be of much use to us all.

	23-09-2002 22:09									#30
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Sistine Chapel is by far the best option if we have Theology.

But we also want as many chances for our other Elites to produce another Great Leader as possible.

A couple of turns delay would be acceptable if needed, but I think we should definately use the Great Leader for something during this turn chat.