23-09-2002 23:44									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Winston Cali, we were originally talking about being sufficiently disabled as to not being aware of whether you're killed or not. As a parallel to the "not advanced enough" foetus PH used as an argument for abortion. I say you can't legitimize killing people just because they aren't developed enough to resist.

Ok, sorry. I was straying from the topic.

	23-09-2002 23:52									#32
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My thoughts on this matter can be "summed up" () with the following long-post from a recent thread on this subject:

I don't ethically consider an entity to be human if it has no brain activity. Somebody who is brain-dead and being kept "alive" by a respirator is still biologically considered a human being (the person's DNA hasn't suddenly mutated by virtue of the fact that the person's brain is not functioning), but ethically I no longer think of the person as human. Similarly, an embryo has no brain activity, and so ethically I don't consider an embryo to be human regardless of its biological classification.

I'm ambivalent as to whether humans have souls in the metaphysical sense of the word, but for purposes of this debate it's easiest if I use the term "soul" in the epistemological sense of the word--the soul is the "I" in the statement "I think therefore I am." I don't consider it very relevant as to whether or not the soul continues to exist after you die (I assume that I'll find this out when I die and not a moment sooner), which will lead to confusion over the term down the road--so, I'll use the term "atman" to reference a thing's being, its "I am," so that everybody will remember that I'm not referring to a metaphysical conception of the soul but only an epistemological conception. I'm not concerned about whether or not an aborted embryo goes to the same afterlife as the rest of us, f'rinstance, because I don't know if there even is an afterlife.

A brain-dead patient has no atman, and neither does an embryo. The fact that the embryo may develop an atman later on does not alter the fact that at present it does not have one. Therefore, to me, aborting an embryo is ethically equivalent to taking a brain-dead patient off of a respirator.

A fetus has brain activity in the third trimester, and despite the fact that its atman is still undeveloped it nevertheless has an atman by virtue of the fact that it is capable of thought. Therefore, it is unethical to abort a fetus.

I consider second-trimester abortions to be a grey area.

	24-09-2002 00:14									#33
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Take out all the mystical crud from Loins, and I agree with him 100%.

	24-09-2002 00:17									#34
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Rah takes out mystical crud from his loins.

	24-09-2002 00:17									#35
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Why do they practise abortions?

Well, practise makes perfect.

It's amazing how many small minds are so hot and bothered to control others.

	24-09-2002 00:23									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Rah takes out mystical crud from his loins.

That's one of the advantages of my username--you abbreviate it at your own risk.

	24-09-2002 00:28									#37
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Three questions!

If abortion were made illegal, what would be done with the thousands of embryos in cold storage across our countries? (Maybe we could put the name of every woman who has sex in a bag and pick a few out... after all, sex is like a lottery!)

I already thought of this before loinburger posted... but if a human being can be said to be legally dead after it loses all mental activity, then at what stage can a human being without a brain be described as legally dead?

When pro-choice people say that they think that abortion is a bad thing that they don't like anyway, is that out of concern for the unborn or the mother?

	24-09-2002 00:38									#38
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I once heard the development of a baby described like this... it is like a light bulb that very slowly comes on as the brain develops. Thus, in the very earliest stages, the baby is essentially just a lump of cells, not a human being. You can't murder something that doesn't even know it exists. A recently conceived fetus is no different than a head of lettuce. If we were to consider killing cells as murder, my kill count would be in the billions for all of the sperm I needlessly exterminated over the years...

I think abortion is a lousy alternative to safe sex and (after pregnancy) to say adoption. I think that to have unprotected sex and get pregnant, and to then just clean it up with an abortion is irresponsible in the most horrific way. My friend's girlfriend, for example, is 15 and she's already had 2 abortions and denies these babies ever existed, and she's STILL having unprotected sex because condoms to her are an inconvenience.

The fact is though, there are countless children in this world already who are unloved and unwanted because their parents. Let's take care of them first before we go producing more people no one wants.

	24-09-2002 02:22									#39
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I'm of two minds when it comes to abortion:

1. My first reaction is disbelief that people would fight so hard over the right to kill unborn children. I've never seen anything close to a good justification for abortion; it seems to me that it is an alternative for those who are irresponsible. I don't even consider a rape pregnancy to be legit. Why punish the child? He didn't do anything, and is as much a victim as the mother. Better to kill the rapist, IMO.

2. My second thought is that if people are stupid enough to want eliminate themselves from the gene pool, then good riddance. Maybe its just another example of the survival of the fittest. People who abort their children won't be able to compete genetically with those who don't.

Personally, if I had my way I'd ban abortion. I just have a problem with sucking the brains out of innocent babies. However, since I don't have a much of a say right now I say go ahead and have all the abortions you want. That way my grandchildren won't have to deal with your kind.

	24-09-2002 02:44									#40
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I prefer the argument made by Bill Hicks. This was his message to pro-lifers.

"You lost. Sorry. Get over it."

	24-09-2002 03:24									#41
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You know you screwed up when multiple mods are after you.

	24-09-2002 05:16									#42
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Births are disgusting. Maybe we should criminalize them.

	24-09-2002 05:25									#43
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I think its time we had another circumcision thread.

	24-09-2002 08:04									#44
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mmm...I'm sure that the man who impregnates the woman by drugging her and forcing her to have sex with him is really concerned about morality

	24-09-2002 08:51									#45
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quote: Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous mmm...I'm sure that the man who impregnates the woman by drugging her and forcing her to have sex with him is really concerned about morality

What's that got to do with circumcision?

	24-09-2002 09:39									#46
	Re: Abortion is a disgusting and murderous practise Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Lungron Those who have them should be locked up. Hey, I have an idea - Because of someone's promiscuity, why don't we go in there, murder and drag out the corpse of an unborn human being! It is their life afterall, even if they didn't insist on unprotected sex. Meanwhile, the life of the child inside doesn't matter because it hasn't been given the opportunity to speak! Quick, kill it before it can come out crying EDIT: GRAPHIC PICTURES OF ABORTED LIVES BELOW

DL flame-baiting.

Seen it.

	24-09-2002 11:32									#47
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Abortions have been common practise for a few thousand years already, and I don't see any reason changing it now.

	24-09-2002 11:45									#48
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Somewhere in this thread someone said that a first trimester fetus was like a head of lettice.

The only problem with that is if you let nature take its course a head of lettuce doesn't become a person.

Calous disregard for human life.

Same for the comparison with a brain dead patient. Let nature take its course it doesn't become a baby.

These are fundamentals. Thats what makes me an evil fundamentalist.

	24-09-2002 11:49									#49
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And whenever I read a thread like this it reminds me that they haven't found Eric Rudolph.

	24-09-2002 12:14									#50
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What do you call a promiscuous man who opposes abortion?

	24-09-2002 12:52									#51
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Hello AnnC

	24-09-2002 13:29									#52
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A republican senator?

	24-09-2002 13:35									#53
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quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick Somewhere in this thread someone said that a first trimester fetus was like a head of lettice. The only problem with that is if you let nature take its course a head of lettuce doesn't become a person. Calous disregard for human life. Same for the comparison with a brain dead patient. Let nature take its course it doesn't become a baby. These are fundamentals. Thats what makes me an evil fundamentalist.

If you care to look at some previous threads as listed by loinburger, your arguments have been thoroughly refuted.

	24-09-2002 13:45									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger If you care to look at some previous threads as listed by loinburger, your arguments have been thoroughly refuted.

That makes no difference to me.

	24-09-2002 14:11									#55
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I think this is the first thread where I've seen all the mods blast someone all on the first page.

That Lungron (or whatever the heck his name was) guy sucked. I'm glad to see he's gone.

	24-09-2002 14:12									#56
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I'm also surprised that MtG, Ming, or rah haven't closed this thread yet.