30-09-2002 13:54									#31
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Population growth - that's the fact! With the money I earn during Fundy I bribe cities. The best population growth program!
I had games where I bribed 4 AI empires (except the capitals).

	30-09-2002 19:47									#32
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Even in Fundy you have to produce tons of gold to bribe a rich AI empire. With a well run Democracy science will be coming in at a tech a turn, allowing you to use superior troops to blow away primitive enemy garrisons. In the meantime your population growth at home will rocket making your trade/gold far more rewarding than any fundamentalist bribe-with-tithes tactic.

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SG(2)

	30-09-2002 21:13									#33
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Really... what happened to those Communist hordes, SG(2)?

This thread comes just when the last 2 succession games had convinced me that celebrating fundy/commie, and lots of trade, was the way to go... trade can get you science every 1-2 turns, and there's no senate or unhappiness to speak of.

Outside of the WLTPD growth in Demo/Rep (and the no bribe risk in Demo) ... where's the advantage in the representative govts?

	30-09-2002 21:46									#34
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@ STYOM

Those commie hordes are still around and in some games are the best way to go for purely quick conquest on large/giga maps. I think the current No Wonders Succession Game would be well suited to celebrating commumism.

The fundy and commie approach is easier to handle in a succession game where there is a variety of experience amongst the participants. However, aggressive Democracy is a fun game to play!

No prizes for guessing the theme of the next succession game...which I hope you will be able to join when the Sticky Mouse Academy has struck back.

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SG(2)

	30-09-2002 22:53									#35
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I'm a huge fan of Demo-trading science monster. Currently playing an isolationist AC game of this ilk.

Unfortunately, I don't have quite the experience at it to maintain a one science/turn rate. Currently running every 2 turns, one per 3 turns when I lag in trade.

Seems like all I have available is Oil and Dye in most cities. Do I go ahead and use them, or wait for them to become actively traded?

My iso policy consists of (1) take over my continent by killing all opposition, (2) explore only enough to expose a few juicy costal cities (which is where the trade routes go).

This has been quite successful, as it's post-1850 and I have only one non-aggression treaty signed against me, am at war with no one, and no one is (yet) blowing my cargo ships out of the water.

Definitely need the trade upgrade to get my science rate to one per turn. Didn't realize that there would be no redfaces with Transports, so cost myself many years of inferior production over that. Just now getting a ship chain in place for my primary target city (hides-R-us).

	01-10-2002 01:00									#36
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quote: Originally posted by -Jrabbit Seems like all I have available is Oil and Dye in most cities. Do I go ahead and use them, or wait for them to become actively traded?

IMO yes... trade with a large AI city, especially one that's in republic or democracy, is well worthwhile. You might want to gift them sanitation if they don't have it, even! If the commodities are demanded, so much the better, but non-demanded commodities from your bigger cities should average 100-300 gold (and beakers) when sent to a size 10-12 AI city.

quote: Didn't realize that there would be no redfaces with Transports, so cost myself many years of inferior production over that. Just now getting a ship chain in place for my primary target city (hides-R-us).

ship chains The REAL reason I build Magellan.

Ideally you have enough transports to have the ship chain be a loop - each turn, you have ships moving back sequentially at the same pace they move out. Otherwise you need to keep buying transports in your source city.

	01-10-2002 01:03									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits No prizes for guessing the theme of the next succession game...which I hope you will be able to join when the Sticky Mouse Academy has struck back. SG(2)

I hope so too... it's killing me to sit this one out... I haven't touched a Civ game in almost a month, now.

	01-10-2002 03:37									#38
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quote: Originally posted by -Jrabbit Seems like all I have available is Oil and Dye in most cities. Do I go ahead and use them, or wait for them to become actively traded?

Yes use them! If you have a monster sized capital/science city make sure you rush buy a commodity freight every turn so long as a anything is offered. (To save huge costs with an empty shield box disband a low value unit like a horseman or diplo to start things off). It is important to use the ship chain to deliver your goods every turn as this tends to free up the supply commodities. If nothing is offered, build a food caravan and use it for a slow burn wonder...this sometimes refreshes the commodities offered.

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SG(2)

	01-10-2002 10:40									#39
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Yes, I agree to STYOM. Celebrating Fundy is nearly unbeatable. A tech every 2nd turn is possible (had had it already). No unhappiness, high production (no support for troops).
@SG[2]
A population growth of 20.000.000 in a few turns - by bribing! And every bribed city gets a temple, too.
I don't need troops - I build diplos and spies-
Had games where I spent more than 100.000 gold for bribing - no problem with celebrating fundy.

	01-10-2002 14:27									#40
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Try playing a democracy game and see if you prefer it...or better still join us in the next succession game.

A population growth of 20 million sounds big, but it's small compared to an empire which can grow from 11 million to 106 million in under 20 turns

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SG(2)

	01-10-2002 17:56									#41
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jrabbit:

quote: Seems like all I have available is Oil and Dye in most cities. Do I go ahead and use them, or wait for them to become actively traded?

I have never seen Dye not in demand somewhere. When give a choice of cargo, I don't even bother anymore to check supply-and-demand -- someone (usually many) always demand Dye. It surprised me that you encountered that. How many cities do you have, and how many AI cities?

Oil is just the opposite, of course.

	01-10-2002 18:10									#42
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Campo -- Weird. My current experience is exactly oppostie.

Will have to check tonight for exact details but -- I have around 25 cities, holding the main continent (plus 3 small island cities nearby). Virtually all can supply dye. Dye is NOT demanded anywhere, nor has it been throughout this game afaik.

It's 1868 & there are 4 remaining AI cive --
Spanish (wimps, despotic, 3 cities)
Carths (monarchy, about 11 or 12 cities and destination for constant Hides freights)
Vikings (about 12 cities. Have found 3, all are size 12)
Russians (haven't met, so I assume they are pathetic)

(Accuracy of the above subject to flaws in user memory core)

Oil should be OK shortly; I'm soon to get Automobile. (Isn't that a trigger tech?) I'm just gonna send Dye everywhere in the meantime (plus the odd one-off commodity that occasionally appears).

Nice to see you around, Campo.

	01-10-2002 22:19									#43
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Dye is demanded in most cities in the beginning of the game. Later, only a new city may demand dye during her early years ! (it's my experience!)
Oil supply begin early than oil demand, when your science is near refining and automobile. Then there is a lot of cities demanding oil. But later, in games in which my aim is landing on AC in 2020, there is a time when suddently oil demand desappear ! It's disapointing when you have a trading strategy to maximise money and buy improvements for a large happy population !
In any case, the rarest resource is Uranium, demanded by all the cities at the end of the game !. But I may testify : uranium supplie exists in Civ II !

	02-10-2002 08:21									#44
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In the game I just finished, I traded dye profusely for a long time, but somewhere around 1500-1700 the demand began to diminish. By the end of the game in 1800, no city, domestic or foreign, had demanded dye for quite some time, and it seemed as if dye was the only commodity any of my cities would produce. During that time, I grew from maybe 40 cities to maybe 80; the AI dropped from about 35 to 0. Partly republic, partly democracy.

The thing that caught my attention was: when I would save the game, quit, and come back later, if I checked the trade adviser, there were dozens of cities demanding dye -- but as I clicked on those cities to examine them, they didn't really want dye, and then they weren't listed that way by the trade adviser anymore.

I've heard of commodities having volatile demand, but that's going a bit too far!

	02-10-2002 11:49									#45
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When I am micromanaging an Empire, I make it a habit to click on a city (generally the capital, but it doesn't matter) click on the up (or down) arrow for 'next city' and then hold down the corresponding (up or down) arrow key - this cycles through the entire empire in under a second - and refreshes all the information display screens.

There are few things as useless as an advisor providing duff information...

SG[1]

	02-10-2002 14:56									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits When I am micromanaging an Empire, I make it a habit to click on a city...click on the up (or down) arrow for 'next city' and then hold down the corresponding (up or down) arrow key - this cycles through the entire empire in under a second - and refreshes all the information display screens.

I used to do such a run of the cityscreens (from my first city in alphabetic order ) to locate pollution to deal with, and sometimes to compare the cities needing rushbuying.
If this operation may refresh informations, I'll regylarly do it !

	02-10-2002 16:37									#47
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quote: Nice to see you around, Campo.

I haven't gone away, but I haven't been playing much Civ. Too busy with other stuff this time of year. I started Narz's September monthly challenge, but playing only a couple hours a week I still haven't finished it. I live in Buffalo, NY, and we've had such beautiful weather the past 6 months that I've been spending my free time in outdoor activities (work and play). I'll get back to more Civ in the winter.

In the meantime I do check the board periodically.

Back on topic: I've never realized that the trade advisor's supply-and-demand list could be wrong. When I'd see an occasional discrepancy in the time between checking the advisor and delivering the product, I always figured demand changed in the intervening turns. I'll have to start looking for that.

That doesn't change my experience with Dye though -- even at delivery time I've always found a city demanding it.

It's odd that we'd have such different experiences playing the same game. I think that's one of the things that makes Civ2 a classic -- it still holds a few surprises.

	02-10-2002 17:15									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits When I am micromanaging an Empire, I make it a habit to click on a city (generally the capital, but it doesn't matter) click on the up (or down) arrow for 'next city' and then hold down the corresponding (up or down) arrow key - this cycles through the entire empire in under a second - and refreshes all the information display screens.

Great tip, SG[1] Quick, easy, and useful.

	03-10-2002 01:06									#49
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But, SG[2], here's the thing: I could clear out all the wrong entries on one turn so the adviser was accurate, then save, quit, re-open, and they'd all be wrong again. ??

Your tip, by the way, is also extremely useful with regard to checking happiness. The happiness adviser gets out of date, but a quick run through the cities will bring it up to date. It's also occasionally useful for F5, the trade adviser that tells you how much science and taxes you're generating.

	04-10-2002 10:09									#50
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@SG[2]
When I switch back to Demo, I have already build all the wonders I need - Bach's, Darwin, Eiffel Tower, Hoover Dam, Newton's, Adam Smith's and so on - nothing left to build for my enemies.

And, if there is room to expand, I will have a size-8-city every turn - ordering my cities to build settlers and joining them to new built cities.

	04-10-2002 13:09									#51
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ramses ... you will build and enjoy those wonders much faster under a Democracy. The Eiffel Tower!...nice video

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SG(2)

	10-10-2002 09:44									#52
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I have concluded it's a bug--this phantom dye demand trap.

Cities that have never demanded dye will show demand status in the advisor. But if you go check the city, there is no dye demanded. That's why I think it's a bug and not an update problem. It's a trap if you don't check before sending the camel.

And I agree, that quick cycle-through tip is great. Another SG catch.

	10-10-2002 14:57									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits ramses ... you will build and enjoy those wonders much faster under a Democracy. The Eiffel Tower!...nice video ----------------- SG(2)

I've never seen the Eiffel video (maybe because I've never built it? ).
But, since it's not the first favourable comment I read on the Eiffel video, I'll check asap .

	10-10-2002 22:24									#54
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As a Parisian, I'm less impressed by the exotic side such a video may have.
But it is true that it is very " Belle époque"!
Actually, I often see ET in feet, but I almost never build it in Civ II.