24-09-2002 15:09									#1
	Ancient Words of Wisdom Inflate your Upload Space

One for LaFayette ...

quote: Originally posted by Sun Tzu some considerable time ago Therefore, no one in the army is treated as well as spies, no one is given rewards as rich as spies, and no matter is more secret than the work of spies.

Please don't move this, Ming, I know it isn't really Strategy, but we can't let a forum die can we

SG[1]

	24-09-2002 17:37									#2
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I'll jump in with a stretegic question. I've been trying to determine if Republic is a viable govt form, and what it takes to make it worthwhile.

I've had great successin just going Monarchy - SOL and choosing either Fundy or Democracy (depending on game conditions at the time). Republic is attractive for its growth potential, but its extreme restrictions in terms of unit costs and happiness caused by (a) too many units and (b) movement outside cities make it a royal pain.

Yet I have seen (perhaps in GL?) writings suggesting a "run to Republic" strategy (ingoring Monarchy ) allowing massive early growth (WLTxD). SO --

Are Diplomats the key to successful Republic? Their defensive aid and lack of support cost (plus ability to move about) seem to suggest this is so. What other keys might I be missing?

	24-09-2002 18:22									#3
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I believe that the advocates of early Republic (of which I am not one) gain the benefits of representation at the expense of the size of their initial empire - typically limiting themselves to about 7 cities ...

SG[1]

	24-09-2002 18:31									#4
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Hm, I've always had at least 10 by the time I got to Repub. And I'm well known for my incompetence at rapid expansion...

Still curious -- How does one handle the minimal defense/penalty for exploration in Rep? Just hide in your cities until they're done growing?

	24-09-2002 20:13									#5
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quote: Originally posted by -Jrabbit Still curious -- How does one handle the minimal defense/penalty for exploration in Rep? Just hide in your cities until they're done growing?

Nahhh... just pay carefull attention to the units you have on the board. Since you are allowed one unit per city to be outside before any unhappiness clicks in, you don't need to give up on exploration at all.

If your exploring units are all attached to one or two cities, attach them to other cities BEFORE you go into Republic. Plan ahead. If your intention is to rush to early republic, keep that in mind when you are sending your first explorers out.

Also... diplos make great explorers as well, and don't cause unhappiness or cost support.
A combo of a ship and a diplo from a single city works really well. Once you are far from your empire, the diplo can either get a non unit from a hut, or you can bribe another civs unit to create a non unit that doesn't cause any unhappiness or cost support.

	24-09-2002 21:46									#6
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-Jrabbit, don't forget that Republic only needs one more tech than Monarchy and if you happen to get a couple of them at the start ...
Or - a last minute thought - if you start without techs, is it possible to get to Republic without the required 'junk tech' that is forced upon you going for Monarchy? If this be so, both Monarchy and Republic are only four techs from the start.
And ... a Republican Sleaze is not impossible - just a lot harder (primarily because of the two food cost of settlers) than a conventional Monarchy Sleaze. At least one of the early Succession Games was played as a Sleaze in Republic.

For my money the primary drawback of Republic as a form of government is the excruciating quantity of corruption that seems to be virtually unavoidable ... anyone got an answer to that one ... Ming?

SG[1]

------------------------------
Hooray (albeit accidentally) an active thread on Strat at last!

	24-09-2002 21:51									#7
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Back on topic...

Sun Tzu defines, "...dead spies are recruited from your enemies' spies..." - what we would now call 'double agents'.

SG[1]

	24-09-2002 22:08									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits For my money the primary drawback of Republic as a form of government is the excruciating quantity of corruption that seems to be virtually unavoidable ... anyone got an answer to that one ... Ming?

For your primary/starting cities... a direct road system to the capital works wonders. As you know, only a road system that the computer considers direct works. Just because you have a connecting road doesn't mean anything. To figure out what the computer thinks is the direct method... place your settler in the city you want to build the road to the capital from (or visa versa). On it's turn, use the go to command and select your capital. Once the unit has moved on the DIRECT path. Click on it to free it from the go to command. Build road starting on the next turn. When road is finished, use the go to command again.

This way, you will have a direct road, and it does make a difference in terms of corruption.

You can also build courthouses, but I find that as a waste of resources early in the game

	24-09-2002 22:27									#9
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Am I being naive? If you use the settler trick to build the road from A to B how can you now determine The Road from B to A???

SG[1]


and re corruption - does The Road from A to capital help A or is it The Road from Capital to A that does the trick?

	24-09-2002 23:18									#10
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Both routes should be identical. (I've never seen them different, but that doesn't mean I'm right) If somebody wants to test this, go ahead

I almost always build the road from the city to the capital. But I have done it in the reverse a few times, and didn't "notice" any differences...

	25-09-2002 00:03									#11
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OK, so clearly my biggest mistake is that I haven't tried the "straight to Republic" tech path yet.

Ming also points out another consistent flaw of mine. Most times I've tried Republic, it was a mid-game decision, by which time I already have too many units to make it practical.

These points are very instructive and will be tried in my next game.

(Currently finishing an isolationist Democracy-AC game. Right now it's 1782, and have only met 2 other civs -- one distant, one now dead.) Yeah, I know -- a good player would have landed by now. (sigh)

	25-09-2002 01:39									#12
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I haven't tried the early Republic option lately. I like Republic, but I don't rush to it. The unhappiness effects seems to negate the WLTPD effect until I have Mikes, and that rules out a really early Republic for me. And without fast growth... Republic is much less attractive.

Also, Republic does let you expand really quick... but it seems to me that this expansion won't be possible without infrastructure, which is usually in place by the time I have Mono/Mikes.

I may try skipping Republic altogether in future. I can certainly see why some take that approach.

	25-09-2002 03:47									#13
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Ming, I'd say most times the AB path and the BA path are not coincident unless a coastline forces the paths to be coincident. For internal trade you are likely to have a fairly extensive network of roads anyway, except for rough terrain. Then you need to find out what route the AI chooses.

Settlers will sometimes go around rough terrain when goto-ing. The only real way to tell is to cheat and create superexplorers (with movement allowance bumped up to make the trip in one turn) to walk the route out.

	25-09-2002 09:40									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Straybow For internal trade you are likely to have a fairly extensive network of roads anyway, except for rough terrain.

Later in the game, you are correct. But early in the game, I'm lucky to have a single road network connecting my early cities. I've noticed that his method does indeed reduce corruption... so until it doesn't, I will keep doing it.

	26-09-2002 00:38									#15
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There was a post, a year or two ago, that included a lovely geometric diagram of the shortest routes. (I don't know if anyone ever validated it.) I think it was in the Great Library, although I'm not checking now to see if it's still there. There seemed to be general agreement that shortest-route AB does not equal shortest-route BA, and the diagram allows you to determine the route each way.

I agree exactly with STYOM; no republic until you have Mike's and infrastructrure.

	26-09-2002 04:32									#16
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Yeah - I remember that diagram...it wasn't always correct

Early Republic can work well on green terrain yielding big food returns. However, Republican settlers are twice as greedy as those under Monarchy and this tends to slow expansion. I have had encouraging results staying in Monarchy, with the Pyramids aiding city growth, then going straight to corruption free Democracy. Magnetism becomes important using this strategy as primitive boats for trade and exploration cause double red faces, though there are ways around this problem.

-----------------------

SG(2)

	26-09-2002 19:02									#17
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My current game is just as you describe, SG(2) -- went from Monarchy to Democracy (via SOL). The double-reds from "primitive boats" have been a real problem.

Other than Magnetism (which I now have), please describe a couple of the "ways around this problem" for me.

Thx!

	26-09-2002 20:32									#18
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Another reason I avoid Republic is the production issue. Units eat up so many shields that it inhibits my Wonder races. I know, I shouldn't need a lot of Wonders -- but I like having them. That shield penalty is a serious drawback early on.

	26-09-2002 22:47									#19
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I've tried different ways in my games :
sometimes going directly from despotism to republic, with the shield penalty, but a good growing rate,
other times going directly from monarchy to democracy.
My opinion is : if I can support republic, I can support democracy, with no corruption and no bribing (but it's not a problem in the early game).
Republic works fine as long as I'm on the same continent that my Capital, with roads between cities.
For exploring, I dispach my units in different cities so there is only one attached unit offshore by city, even if I concentrate boat building in one.
And don't forget to build Shakespeare Theater in a costal city, to rehome in it the whole navy (and later airplanes !).
OK about diplos or spy for exploring ground units, but I also use caravans and, of course, NON units.
Diplos and spies are fragil and may be swipped to the capital at the mere contact. They may open huts, but cannot catch a barb leader for monney : they know only buy him !

	27-09-2002 03:48									#20
	Re: Ancient Words of Wisdom Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits One for LaFayette ... quote: Originally posted by Sun Tzu some considerable time ago Therefore, no one in the army is treated as well as spies, no one is given rewards as rich as spies, and no matter is more secret than the work of spies. Please don't move this, Ming, I know it isn't really Strategy, but we can't let a forum die can we SG[1]

No one in my army is treated as well as vet spies, no one is given rewards as rich as vet spies, but no matter should be less secret than the work of vet spies after all the posts I have written giving the details of their various abilities .

About roads, the 'shortest' from A to B is generally different from the one from B to A, except when you can draw a straight line between A and B ( = if the GOTO command gives a straight direct path, without any change of direction between the 2 cities).

About early Republic, I would say " if you are at war, or if you hate micromanaging, or if you have been beaten to the Gardens and Mike: forget it".
But if you have peaceful neighbours, the HG (+ Mike later on), a nice food surplus in most cities of yours and a number of commodity caravans on their way, early Rep can bring you a very nice boost through WLTCD.

	27-09-2002 11:38									#21
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quote: Originally posted by -Jrabbit ... -- went from Monarchy to Democracy (via SOL). ...

That sounds like a dreadful waste of 8 caravans to me!!

If the aim is to go to Demo, why build SoL - use the Oedo table instead, much cheaper ...

If you can't lay your hands on the Oedo table, promise yourself to play honestly and at the end of turn save, revolt and see - reload if not oedo, but make no changes that are influenced by the observed inter turn information and repeat until revolution is successful - no cheat in my book, just using the game to tell you when the Oedo year falls

SG[1]

	27-09-2002 11:46									#22
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I play Rep because it is a challenge. Most any deity player can beat the AI from Monarchy (or even Despotism I suppose, I've never tried). The war unhappiness and unit support serves to rein in military growth.

	27-09-2002 11:52									#23
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In x1 deity going straight to republic is the preferred strat in MP games.

It has a number of advantages:

In the course of getting there you have a shot at the main happy wonders - the chapel and Bach's.

You can get philosophy first, which gives you an extra tech - important in a tight game, particularly if you are in the happy wonder race.

You can start WLTLD early and enjoy masive growth.

The number of cities you can develop is not limited but you do get major unhappies once you get above 10 and again above 20 (I forget the exact number of cities for each). But this can be worked around.

Anyway a big advantage over democracy is you can leave some cities unhappy and just keep expanding. They still grow whilst unhappy.

A skilled player going straight to republic will kill a player who stays in monarchy for any length of time.

	27-09-2002 11:53									#24
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We used to play the Anarchy challange, where no real govenment is allowed. It didn't really cause any serious problems in winning a game

	27-09-2002 17:00									#25
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... err... Ming, you played Anarchy challenge SP against AI or in MP making the "angry mobs war"?

	27-09-2002 19:25									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Messer Niccolò ... err... Ming, you played Anarchy challenge SP against AI or in MP making the "angry mobs war"?

Only against the AI... I was playing all the "challenges" when there was nobody around to play MP with

	27-09-2002 21:47									#27
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I advocate early republic - first you really need to have most roads and irrigation ready. Settlers eat two wheatsheafs in republic, you're better off settling them before the switch. You then have a militarily weak (barring NON unit acquisition), small republic. However, within 10-20 turns, you have a bustling, wealthy, high powered science machine. With WLT*D, your cities swell large enough to produce enough shields to support a few units. You'll never have the production of monarchy, but the trade-off is vastly improved arrow production. My favorite . Camels are double lovable, as well - because your cities have nearly double arrow totals, caravan payoff is vastly increased.

Look at it as a short spell of being a weenie civ in order to leap ahead thereafter.

	28-09-2002 02:48									#28
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quote: Originally posted by -Jrabbit My current game is just as you describe, SG(2) -- went from Monarchy to Democracy (via SOL). The double-reds from "primitive boats" have been a real problem. Other than Magnetism (which I now have), please describe a couple of the "ways around this problem" for me.

Jrabbit:
"Primitive boats" are triremes and caravels, ships that have at least one Attack point. Anything with an Attack rating will count against your city happiness in Republic or Democracy. In Republic, the first unit outside of a city or fortress near a city is OK. So if you have triremes or caravels out, any other units from that city need to be at home. You can move ships around to rehome them (move them into another city and select "Support from this city"), or bring other land units home. Another strategy for solving the problem is to build Shakespeares Theatre in a coastal city and rehome all your ships and "foreign legions" in that one city. Or build Leonardos Workshop and let it upgrade all your Triremes and Caravels to Galleons, which have no attack points. Later in the game you can build Womens Suffrage, which decreases the unhappiness from units away from home (there is an irony in that, but I won't get political here!). But then, don't you get transports around the time you can build WS?

	30-09-2002 10:24									#29
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Having build Mike's, I go immediately to Republic with a high science rate, researching for key techs to build Adam Smith's, SoL an J.S.Bachs. During that time I trade and trade and trade. When I get SoL, I switch to Demo for a while, then I go to Fundy to make some money. Every new founded city will get a temple immediately, for this raises my income.
When I have managed to build the wonders (and some more - in Fundy, with low research, it's important to get those two extra techs) my research goes to the techs needed for the UN, Cure For Cancer and Hoover Dam, maybe Newton's, too. All these wonders are paid from my fundy-income.
When I get J.S.Bachs, I let my cities celebrate (HG+Mike's+Bach's = CELEBRATION) for a while - BIG CA$H! Had games where I earned more than 2000 gold a turn. And I continue trading with celebrating cities.

	30-09-2002 13:05									#30
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ramses II ... try going to Democracy without the switch to Fundy. This has the following benefits:

1) Save 8 caravans NOT building SoL ... use them for a science wonder or JSB.
2) If you are trading hard your freight returns will be greater in Democracy.
3) As your cities continue to grow in Demo so does your wealth. Population growth is more important than any short term gain from tithes in Fundamentalism

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SG(2)