24-09-2002 21:35									#31
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It is entirely clear that the US isn't interested in petty "leaders" with their hands on NBC weapons. There are a whole bunch of them and Dubya aren't targeting most of them.

Second point is only nuclear weapons can be considered weapons of "mass destruction." I hardly think chemical and biological agents cause structural damage.

	24-09-2002 21:37									#32
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Ok, you're right . We just want the oil and we are willing 100 billion USD for it. Despite the fact that we could just buy it for a fraction of that.

Actually, the whole thing is just an election ploy. Want to get Georgie's numbers up. Despite the fact that his Daddy lost his reelction bid after a sucessful war versus Iraq.

Come to think of it we are going in to avenge Daddy Bush. Saddam tried to have him killed so there.

It was all a ploy to get Al Gore to declare early for 2004. We have him now.

The real reason that we are going to destroy Iraq is because of a freak scientific discovery made as a by product of Iraqi biological weapons research. Saddam is planning to market a wonder drug that both cures cancer and prevents the onset of aging. Worldwide distribution is to begin in January at a retail cost of only one nickel per monthly dose per person. This of course would destabilize the world economy, ravage US drug makers, and cripple the US Social Security system.

We can't have that.

	24-09-2002 21:39									#33
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You eat a meal one bite at a time, UrbanRanger.

	24-09-2002 21:39									#34
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Another thing I get tired of is "The USA did this and that and used to be friendly with so-and-so". Big damned deal. I'd be willing to bet that there's not 1 person here that has had an individual friendship in the past, and helped that past friend out, only to later not be friends, and perhaps even regret the favor.

Surely you're not comparing doing a favor for a friend to shipping components for chemical and biological weapons to a Middle East dictator we knew had a penchant for mass-murder, for the purpose of keeping him in a bloody war against a neighbor whom we happened to object to (never mind that we were indirectly responsible for Iran's objectional regime in the first place)?

	24-09-2002 21:42									#35
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand You eat a meal one bite at a time, UrbanRanger.

That might have applied, if we weren't currently "close allies" with several of those places.

	24-09-2002 21:50									#36
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I hope you are going to be happy with your $200B bill, jimmytrick.

	24-09-2002 21:53									#37
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Boris, they were not "components of chemical and biological weapons". All the bugs, probably the anthrax too at that time, were available from ATCC. You can now access them from the web, they supply pure organisms and cells for biological research.

The quoted reports include comments by laymen that would fit well along side of reports that Elvis was an alien.

	24-09-2002 21:55									#38
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What is the point of bringing up the fact that we gave this or that assistance to Iraq in the past? That is the most lame argument. We gave everything but the shirt off our backs to Stalin and it worked out.

You can't apply personal morality or ethics to the conduct of nations. Well, you can if you are a fool.

	24-09-2002 22:05									#39
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The US economy and the underlying military-industrial complex need a good war every now and then. I do not expect the fighting in Iraq to deteriorate into urban warfare unless this current downturn in the markets persists.

If necessary the US can easily broaden the war into Iran or even a strike at aggressive Arab regimes.

(this one was added to tweak the nose of those who on the one hand say the war will cost the US too much after saying earlier that we are just trying to jump start the economy)

	24-09-2002 22:24									#40
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quote: However, Maj. Charles Heyman, editor of Jane's World Armies, said the dossier "does not produce any convincing evidence, or any killer fact, that says that Saddam Hussein has to be taken out straight away." He said, "What it does do is produce very convincing evidence that the weapons inspectors have to be pushed back into Iraq very quickly."

	24-09-2002 22:29									#41
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quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick The US economy and the underlying military-industrial complex need a good war every now and then. I do not expect the fighting in Iraq to deteriorate into urban warfare unless this current downturn in the markets persists.

Because the US is on a permanent war footing, any economic benefits from ramping up production of war materials and increased government spending were realized long ago. Now wars are a drain on the American economy, diverting resources from other areas of needed government spending. Uncertainty in the oil markets will likely lead to a spike in oil prices (some of which will be caused by price gouging by oil companies, just like in the First Bush-Hussein War). By calling up reservists, there will be a contraction in productivity and spending, and while soldiers are away from their American bases they won't be spending money in their local communities.

	24-09-2002 22:31									#42
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LMAO!

	24-09-2002 22:33									#43
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Care to share your amusement?

	24-09-2002 22:38									#44
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Che, I find your posts entertaining. Please do go on.

	24-09-2002 22:45									#45
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What part or parts do you disagree with?

The Permanent war footing? Eisenhower discussed this in his farwell speech.

That reservists who are called up can no longer contribute to the economy? That soldiers who are shipped out can no longer spend money in the communities near their bases? Are you suggesting that people who are shipped of to the Gulf will somehow be able to work and spend in the US at the same time?

That there will be a spike in oil prices? Do you eny this happened last time?

	24-09-2002 23:21									#46
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Che, I assume from your posts that you are in favor of a strong UN resolution that tells Saddam: any time, any place with no advanced warning - or else.

	24-09-2002 23:26									#47
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Ned: Che takes the most recent view of Scott Ritter that Iraq doesn't have any NBC weapons.

	24-09-2002 23:29									#48
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let me pick out a few things i found interesting.



3.Saddam uses patronage and violence to motivate his supporters and to control or
eliminate opposition.Potential rewards include social status,money and better
access to goods.Saddam �fs extensive security apparatus and Ba �fath Party
network provides oversight of Iraqi society,with informants in social,
government and military organisations.Saddam practises torture,execution andother forms of coercion against his enemies,real or suspected.His targets are
not only those who have offended him,but also their families,friends or colleagues.

Saddam acts to ensure that there are no other centres of power in Iraq.He has
crushed parties and ethnic groups,such as the communists and the Kurds,which
might try to assert themselves.Members of the opposition abroad have been the
targets of assassination attempts conducted by Iraqi security services.

Saddam has pursued a long-term programme of persecution of the Iraqi Kurds,
including through the use of chemical weapons.
1987-88,al-Majid led the �gAnfal �h campaign of attacks on Kurdish villages..
Amnesty International estimates that more than 100,000 Kurds were killed or
disappeared during this period.
Repression and control:some examples
�œA campaign of mass arrests and killing of Shia activists led to the
execution of the Ayatollah Baqir al-Sadr and his sister in April 1980.
�œIn 1983 80 members of another leading Shia family were arrested.Six of
them,all religious leaders,were executed.
�œA massive chemical weapons attack on Kurds in Halabja town in March
1988 killing 5000 and injuring 10,000 more.
�œA large number of officers from the Jabbur tribe were executed in the
early 1990s for the alleged disloyalty of a few of them.
After the Gulf War in 1991 Kurds in the north of Iraq rose up against Baghdad �fs
rule.In response the Iraqi regime killed or imprisoned thousands,prompting a
humanitarian crisis.Over a million Kurds fled into the mountains and tried to
escape Iraq.
8.Persecution of Iraq �fs Kurds continues,although the protection provided by the
northern No-Fly Zone has helped to curb the worst excesses.But outside this
zone the Baghdad regime has continued a policy of persecution and
intimidation.
9.The regime has used chemical weapons against the Kurds,most notably in an
attack on the town of Halabja in 1988 (see Part 1 Chapter 2 paragraph 9).The
implicit threat of the use of chemical weapons against the Kurds and others is an
important part of Saddam �fs attempt to keep the civilian population under control.


Some 40 of Saddam �fs relatives,including women and children,have been killed.
His sons-in-law Hussein and Saddam Kamil had defected in 1995 and returned
to Iraq from Jordan after the Iraqi government had announced amnesties for
them.They were executed in February 1996.

	24-09-2002 23:37									#49
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Ned: Che takes the most recent view of Scott Ritter that Iraq doesn't have any NBC weapons.

Until proven otherwise, yes. I am strongly in favor of the return of inspectors, because I do not doubt that Hussein has been trying to rebuild his WoMD. But trying and succeeding are two different things.

Frankly, however, all the rhetoric that has been used against Hussein could be equally applied to both Israel and Pakistan. Both countries have WoMD. Both countries are agressive and have attacked their neighbors. Both countries sponsor terrorism.

The so-called policy of Bush's isn't a policy, it's simply a set of excuses to attack Iraq that will not be applied to other, more dangerous, countries.

Remember, the editor-in-chief of Janes said there's nothing in Blair's dossier that says that Iraq is an immediate threat.

	24-09-2002 23:42									#50
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So the Jane's editor has more credibility to you than Blair?

	24-09-2002 23:43									#51
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If Iraq is hobbled, who will counter Iran?

	24-09-2002 23:45									#52
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I'm always suprised to see a commie use realism.

	24-09-2002 23:47									#53
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Che, you raise a very good point. Iran is a concern for me too.

I have been thinking and I was wondering what in the world would happen if Iran invaded Iraq now. How does their military stack up with Iraq. Since you think so highly of Jane's military intelligence services you probably know more about that than Tony Blair.

	24-09-2002 23:54									#54
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Until proven otherwise, yes. I am strongly in favor of the return of inspectors, because I do not doubt that Hussein has been trying to rebuild his WoMD. But trying and succeeding are two different things.

Do you favor inspections that will work?

	24-09-2002 23:55									#55
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ANd what would be their reason for invading Iraq? They've been rather vocal in opposing our going in, how would they justify theirs?

	24-09-2002 23:58									#56
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Iran could simply say they are invading Iraq to remove the agressor Saddam and forestall an American invasion.

	24-09-2002 23:59									#57
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quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick So the Jane's editor has more credibility to you than Blair?

Yes. Blair is a political animal. He is trying to spin. Jane's has a reputation for being rather devoted to accuracy. If the Jane's editor said otherwise, I'd have to seriously reconsider my stance on Iraq. Remember, the editor said this today in repsonse to Blair's dossier. So if Blair can't convince the people who are among the best military analysts in the world, I think that there's more smoke than fire.

	25-09-2002 00:03									#58
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quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick Che, you raise a very good point. Iran is a concern for me too. I have been thinking and I was wondering what in the world would happen if Iran invaded Iraq now. How does their military stack up with Iraq.

Iraq's military is reputed to be 1/4 the size it was during the first Bush-Hussein War. Iran could probably take them out with a good push.

That would be brilliant. How could Bush oppose it politically, since he himself is trying to do the very same thing?

	25-09-2002 00:03									#59
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I don't think that anyone has said that Iraq is an immdeiate threat. Hence the emphasis on pre-emption.

PS What is Jane's relationship to the flight sims that bear thier name? Is it merely lending thier name or do they have actual input in thier development?

	25-09-2002 00:05									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Do you favor inspections that will work?

Yes. The sooner their job is done the sooner that blockade of Iraq can end. People forget, my side isn't with Huseein or against American necessarily. My side is with the innocent people of Iraq who are pawns of an evil dicator and a callous superpower.