24-09-2002 23:25									#1
	Swordsmen should upgrade to Knights Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Many people complain about that Swordsmen (and Legions/Immortals) stay in the game too long, and that there is no natural offensive unit that they can upgrade to.

My solution is to upgrade them to Knights. They don't lose anything by upgrading to Knights.

Last edited by Optimizer on 26-09-2002 at 20:14

	24-09-2002 23:56									#2
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What I did was increase the defense of Longbowmen by 1 and have swordsmen upgrade to that. Longbowmen then upgrade to Riflemen and so on.

Swordsmen will likely upgrade to Medieval infantry in PtW.

	25-09-2002 01:55									#3
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In PTW, swordsmen will upgrade to Medieval Infantry. Medieval Infantry and Longbowmen upgrade to Guerilla.

The problem with upgrading to riflemen is that AI will do it. This isn't bad but they will carry the offensive units flag around. This is bad. In the late game they will ugrade these units to Mech Infantry and attack with them rather than building Modern Armor, because they think they have enough offensive units. I've seen it happen a few times in my mod before I realized what was happening. BTW, the Guerilla is flagged as an offensive unit.

	26-09-2002 01:32									#4
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The AI flag is randomly set to any avalible when the unit is created/upgraded (may have been fixed in a patch).

	26-09-2002 16:38									#5
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That would be good. I remember when I modded riflemen into the upgrade path for all middle ages foot units, and in the late game the AI kept attacking me with stacks of infantry and mech infantry even though they knew how to build tanks and later modern armor.

	27-09-2002 09:32									#6
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I can't imagine being able to upgrade from warriors to knights as being fair. I let them upgrade to riflemen, the next best base defense unit.

	27-09-2002 12:13									#7
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I actually think it's good that some units just become obsolete. By letting every unit in the game be upgradable from beginning to end, you totally ruin the idea of having to rebuild your army after a big breakthrough in weapons technology.

I think Civ3 models this pretty good, since it lets defensive units be upgradable all the way, but not offensive. When a new strong defensive unit becomes available (this mostly concerns the later defensive units Riflemen, Infantry and Mech Inf), offensive wars become very hard until you have got new attacking units. By allowing Longbowmen to upgrade to Marines or Cavalry to Tanks you totally lose this idea.

Allowing Swordsmen to upgrade to Longbowmen might, however, by perfectly ok, since Longbowmen are pretty crappy as they are now.

	30-09-2002 01:17									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Hurricane Allowing Swordsmen to upgrade to Longbowmen might, however, by perfectly ok, since Longbowmen are pretty crappy as they are now.

One of the principles of upgrading in Civ3 is that, except for resources requirements, upgrades are in no way worse than the units they upgrade from. Thus, replacing a 3/2/1 with a 4/1/1 was not included because it replaces a 2 defense unit with a 1 defense unit. If I use legions or swordsmen for defense, I would purposefully not want to upgrade my troops to an inferior unit. The reason I place the upgrade of swords at riflemen is that they are the first unit on the tech tree, besides cavalry (which are disqualified for being a different type of unit altogether), that is not worse in some respect than swordsmen.

	30-09-2002 10:34									#9
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Swordsman to knight has some merit based on the logical sense that the difference in a sword wielding maniac and a knight is basically the horse and some extra armor

But, I dont really like the idea of giving warriors an upgrade path to calvary either....though it is logical. I sort of agree Hurricane that armies should basically go obsolete at some point. I might be ok with it if upgrading reduced experience levels back to regular (representing the need to retrain, since combat on a horse is vastly different to combat on the ground, same with a gun, etc.) But losing the elites would tick most people off So its probally best like it is :P

	30-09-2002 18:27									#10
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quote: Originally posted by WarpStorm The problem with upgrading to riflemen is that AI will do it. This isn't bad but they will carry the offensive units flag around. This is bad. In the late game they will ugrade these units to Mech Infantry and attack with them rather than building Modern Armor, because they think they have enough offensive units. I've seen it happen a few times in my mod before I realized what was happening. BTW, the Guerilla is flagged as an offensive unit.

That’s no good!

I modded my game quite a lot and I have to chains that change roles:

horseman-knight-cavalry-mech inf

(Goes from offense to defense.)

warrior-swordsman-rifleman-infantry-modern infantry

(Goes from offense to defense.)

You mean to tell me that the AI doesn't update the offense/defense flags when upgrading?

So that if you upgrade say knights to a 1/10/1 unit and flag it as defensive, the AI will go to war with it as an assault unit?

-Alech

	30-09-2002 18:29									#11
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quote: Originally posted by wervdon I might be ok with it if upgrading reduced experience levels back to regular (representing the need to retrain, since combat on a horse is vastly different to combat on the ground, same with a gun, etc.) But losing the elites would tick most people off So its probally best like it is :P

You do loose Elites when upgrading now. Elites go to Veteran, Veteran stay the same and so do Regulars.

-Alech

	30-09-2002 23:33									#12
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I usually have them upgrade to marines, as that is the next (only) infantry that is offensive.....

PtW.... I want it now!!!!

	01-10-2002 03:03									#13
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I have swordsmen upgrade to musketmen cause that what happened in real life. Musketeers were just swordsmen with crude gunpowder weapons.

	01-10-2002 04:09									#14
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quote: Originally posted by WarpStorm That would be good. I remember when I modded riflemen into the upgrade path for all middle ages foot units, and in the late game the AI kept attacking me with stacks of infantry and mech infantry even though they knew how to build tanks and later modern armor.

As far as I know, that was probelm with 1.21f patch.
And it is fixed.

I haven't seen any big probelms in my OWN mod later.

But, just to be sure, I unflagged Offense flag for Mech. Inf (Soren said that upgrading offesnse unit to "defense flag only" unit will change units strategy to defense) and give Riflemen and Infantry offense of 5 and 8.

P.S.
By the way, It's better for AI to attack you with Infantry then with suicidal Longbowmen (which is also offnseive).
Both units take offense space, for more modern offense units anyway.

	01-10-2002 04:12									#15
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In my MOD:

Swordsmen 3/2/1/cost 30, upgrades to Rilfemen
Longbowmen 4/1/1/cost 30, upgrades to Rilfemen
Musketmen 3/4/1/cost 50, upgrades to Rilfemen
Riflemen 5/6/1/cost 70, upgrades to Infantry
Infantry 8/10/1/cost 90, upgrades to Mech. Inf.

	03-10-2002 04:39									#16
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I think its good we can build swordsmen later on though, as they are nice and cheap for the small cities to make and can be used as police/culture enforcement.

We just need a realistic industrial unit thats cheap, some kind of civilian militia.

	03-10-2002 12:27									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Akaoz You mean to tell me that the AI doesn't update the offense/defense flags when upgrading? So that if you upgrade say knights to a 1/10/1 unit and flag it as defensive, the AI will go to war with it as an assault unit?

That's correct. Unfortunate, but true. It doesn't seem that hard to change, but I suppose I haven't seen the AI code, so I can't say for sure...

	03-10-2002 13:58									#18
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In fact, Soren said that if new unit has only defense flag, and old one was offensive it would be changed to defensive.

Of course since Rilemen has both offense & defense flags, if you upgarde let's say Swordsmen to Riflemen you'll get offense Riflemen.

That's the main reaon why I have taken out offense flag form Mech. Inf.

	03-10-2002 22:29									#19
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Player1,

I think that since in the un-modded version (1.29f) I have seen the AI attack with 100+ MI, and clean other civ's off the map, there is nothing wrong with having MI use both offense and defense flags.

Considering current American and Soviet doctrines use the MI to support the Armour, both in defense and offense, the AI Civ's shouldn't have their hands tied. If they can produce a couple of hundred MI before I can make enough MA's to kill them, they will win by wiegh of numbers alone.

In addition, I have used MI on the offensive several times, especially when I was short on the rubber and oil needed to produce tanks, and did quite well, even against Infantry. Granted I needed some artillery and bombers to soften them up, I lost very few units. Too bad the AI Civ's can use their units as well as a human: save the tanks for the tougher targets and use support weapons to paste the target before sending in the lesser troops...

Getting back to the theme of the thread, I still hold to the idea that there should be a definite break in the upgrade chain when gunpowder units appear: their use is substantially different from employing non-gunpowder units, and the training of such troops is very from bowmen and hand to hand units. Team work and coordination take on much more important roles. Not to mention supply and morale. Instead of loosing heart in hand to hand action, you are facing volleys of musket balls from a couple of hundred meters and you can barely see the face of the person shooting at you. Discipline and leadership become much harder to maintain when almost random casualties can take out many officers and hopefully the guys standing next to you. And wounds tend to be much more severe, with limbs torn off by the heavy slow .50 cal musket balls instead of clean cuts and punctures from swords and spears.

The upshot is that yes swordsmen should be allowed to upgrade to knights while pikemen and longbowmen should not be allowed to become musketmen.

The only exception to this should be the knights who should upgrade to a light cavalry (Lancers) since the cavalry relied on single shot carbines, pistols, lances and sabres until the US Civil War. Then you started to see the repeating rifles come into use.

Anyway, I'm going to hold off making alot of changes to the last mod version I've been tinkering with until PtW arrives at the end of the month. Then we'll see what needs help in the upgrade paths.


D.

	04-10-2002 01:16									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Gen.Dragolen Player1, I think that since in the un-modded version (1.29f) I have seen the AI attack with 100+ MI, and clean other civ's off the map, there is nothing wrong with having MI use both offense and defense flags.

Now, if they have produced 50MA instead of 100MI, I think thay'll clear your civ too, not just other civs.

There is no real reason to keep them at offnse, since if you have resources for MI, you they also have reources for MA or Tank.

So it' better to attack cities with them.

By the way, defensive flag doesn't mean just sitting it cities either.
It's also, offensive pillaging, and unit defensive unit support.

	07-10-2002 07:27									#21
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quote: Originally posted by player1 Now, if they have produced 50MA instead of 100MI, I think thay'll clear your civ too, not just other civs...

player1,

Yes the trick would be to make them build 100 MA, though in most games, that wouldn't be enough for them to kill you or me either...

D.

	07-10-2002 18:25									#22
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And they would build them if you flag MI as defensive only.

AI would figure out that he alredy has enough defensive units, and will go building offensive MA.

Especialy, since all those offensive Infantries will become defensive MI, and thus would lower AI number of offesnive units, which would focus him on building MA as often as possbile.

	08-10-2002 04:29									#23
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my swordsmen used to upgrade to knights, but that made that path too powerful.

my new combination (not playtested enough yet):
- crossbowman (5,2,1, renamed from original longbowman) or longbowman (5,3,1, english UU-replaces crossbowman): makes up for the movement-disadvantage towards the knights (why should you otherwise use longbowmen?)
- pikeman (1,4,1)
- musketman (2,5,1)
- rifleman (5,7,1)
- infantry (7,10,1)
- cavalry (8,3,3)
- marine and paratrooper also had a small powerup

upgrade path:
- sword --> musketman
- cross/logbow --> rifleman
- don't forget that hoplite now upgrades to pikeman
- cavalry --> tank