24-09-2002 23:29									#1
	Militaristic, Industrious, Religious are so far ahead of the other traits Enter the AD-FREE zone

Why have they even included the other ones? They need to be drastically beefed up, or just taken out alltogether.

Expansion is a joke, I find it amusing so many over on the play the world boards are in love with that trait. I think it just stinks.

	24-09-2002 23:56									#2
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Since 1.29f I think the traits are one of the most balanced aspects of civ3.

Each and every one of them shines under certain conditions (map settings, difficulty level, game beginning/end).

Give me a trait combo and I will give you a situation where it's better than any other combo!

	25-09-2002 00:07									#3
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Are you just trolling, Artifex? You just did this same thread on the PTW board?

Yes, I like expansionistic. Commercial works good for big empires (especially in Democracy). Scientific is okay. What's not to like about 3 free techs and dirt cheap libraries?

	25-09-2002 00:12									#4
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Expansionist is an awesome ability, even with medium size maps. Only on truly tiny maps does it start to migrate towards mediocre. The ability to always get a benefit out of huts and to have a great 2-move unit for exploring and settler placement from the start is quite formidable. I can't imagine why you don't like it.

Scientific and Commercial, however, need some beefing up.

	25-09-2002 00:14									#5
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Alexman is correct. I have played and won games with more than half of the civs and I haven't found a single trait/combo significantly worse than another. It makes the gameplay DIFFERENT though. And that is what traits were meant for, I guess. If you believe that militaristic, industrial, and religious rock, then use and enjoy them. But others may prefer different traits, sometimes maybe even because of a greater challenge. If you keep winning the game easily with civs enjoying the traits you value most, try winning with a civ that has none!

I definitely see the traits as one of the best implemented innovations in Civ3 (1.29f, that is). It is a huge improvement over the uniformity of civs in Civ2, fortunately introducing no unwanted side-effects or related issues.

	25-09-2002 00:20									#6
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When is the watercolor terrain mod complete warp? I can't wait for it !

	25-09-2002 01:09									#7
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I like them all (now that Com has been fixed). You just have to known how to use them.

	25-09-2002 01:19									#8
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quote: Originally posted by cyclotron7 Scientific and Commercial, however, need some beefing up.

Commercial did got beefed up iwth 1.29f patch.

And I like it.

Although not as much as I like Religious and Industrial trait.

Scientific is not that good in SP (although it's handy to get several free tech to trade with AI), but it would be good in MP, were players are forced to discover their own techs.

	25-09-2002 01:29									#9
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quote: Originally posted by player1 Scientific is not that good in SP (although it's handy to get several free tech to trade with AI), but it would be good in MP, were players are forced to discover their own techs.

Scientific is actually better than Religious on lower difficulty levels where the human does most of the research on his own.

	25-09-2002 01:29									#10
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I can just see that MP game where everyone sets their research slider to zero like some people do now. While some tech trading might go on between human players, I know that it'll have to be a pretty good deal for me to trade with another human.

	25-09-2002 02:10									#11
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129f did make commercial viable, just not my choice. I never have cared for expansionist, I agree that it is good that we have them all to choose from. I down grade Religous as well, since I do not need to switch governments more than once. My prefernce is Mil and Ind, the warmongers friends. Below Monarch, none of it really matters much, but from there and up it is so hard to over come the improved chances for elites and chances for leaders. I am willing to concede to Exp trait if it does give a big increase in the chance to get a settler form a hut, that would be huge.

	25-09-2002 03:12									#12
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Does anyone have down low specific information on how traits modify their respective field? For example, how much % corruption commercial cuts down, how much better chance mil is etc...

	25-09-2002 07:04									#13
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When civ3 came came out I started out as the French, and it was ok, since then I when for mil, indus, or religious.Following the majroroty here on the boards.

Just a couple of weeks ago, (1.29) i went for commercial again, and did it rock or what!!!!!! (emperor)
This IS one might trait IMHO!!!
But it depends on he game, that is true, but even then

	25-09-2002 07:50									#14
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Since 1.29, Militaristic/Commerical has become one of my favourite trait combos. Since I've turned warmonger, the reduced corruption helps immensely when I've conquered a massive amount of territory with my superior military (derived from both the Legionaire and the Militaristic trait). By the time I reached the modern era last time (on Regent), I was far ahead of the competition in every demographic (rapid progress afforded by immense income). With Smith's Trading Company, having a massive military under Republic/Democracy is all the more viable, as there is rarely ever a shortage of money.

So for a warmongering type like me who likes to conquer and hold huge amounts of territory, this trait combo is definitely one of my favourites.

Apart from that, I like Militaristic/Industrious, Militaristic/Religious, Industrious/Religious and Expansionist/Industrious.

Of course, that is because that suits my styles of play.

	25-09-2002 08:47									#15
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I have never had much success with militaristic Civs, so militaristic is way down on my list.

	25-09-2002 12:04									#16
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Militaristic is poor, in my opinion. Many of the other traits give you something that is impossible to replicate any other way. Militaristic just gives you cheap improvements (often redundant, given the Militaristic wonders you can build) and vaguely speeded up unit improvement (which other civs could get anyway through fighting that little bit more often than you).

	25-09-2002 12:19									#17
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I used to think Expansionist was the weakest, but in my last game (Americans) I got a settler from a goodie hut in 3950BC and had my second city established in 3900BC! And never looked back from that early lead.

Also in a thread from a couple of months - "A reconsideration of Expansionist trait" or something like that - one of the posters, Monkspider, wrote about the benefits of expansionist trait in city placement. I found that too in my last game; it enabled me to grab lots of luxury resources all around my continent and then build inwards, and it worked a treat.

My only complaint about Expansionist now is that whereas all the other traits continue to give benefits throughout the game, the Expansionist trait gives pretty much all its benefits in the early game and then becomes redundant.

	25-09-2002 12:24									#18
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To appreciate all the civ characteristics, I have gone over to Random Civ at the beginning of the game. Great for having different styles of games, as well as being shocked when an improvement is cheaper/more expensive than I have gotten used to!

	25-09-2002 16:26									#19
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quote: Originally posted by The Puny Celt My only complaint about Expansionist now is that whereas all the other traits continue to give benefits throughout the game, the Expansionist trait gives pretty much all its benefits in the early game and then becomes redundant.

This is true, but the head start you got continues throughout the whole game. In your own example, you said you never looked back.

	25-09-2002 16:49									#20
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I don't know.

In several games Expansionist was usefull for me, but in seveal other games it was comnpletly USELESS to me too.

The real probelem with it is that in times it is uesfull, it realy not soo much special.

So risk doesn't pay off in long run:
-you can get a good result (but not too good)
-or you can get wasted trait

I't like playing some gamble game in which you invest in 100$, and there is 50% chance to get 150$ in return or loose all.

Statistickly speaking you are losing.

Last edited by player1 on 25-09-2002 at 16:54

	25-09-2002 17:33									#21
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My experience with it is more like you gamble $100 and there is a 50% chance to get $200 in return, 35% chance to get $500 in return and a 15% chance to lose the whole pile.

In the long run, in my experience, I find that it pays off well.

It is now my second favorite trait. Industrious has a slight edge, because it is always good in all situations.

Industrious-Expansionistic rocks hard on nearly every map (yes, if you got stuck on a tundra island that can only support 3 cities tops and no goody huts in the sea with no other land in sight, it'd suck, but so would anything).

	25-09-2002 17:34									#22
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It's a shame that the Americans (Industrious-Expansionistic civ) have the worst UU.

	25-09-2002 17:38									#23
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On large maps with plenty of huts, the Expansionist trait has obvious benefits. But even on smaller maps, Expansionist aids the early rush. Knowing where the nearest rival capital is can allow you to cripple at least one rival before the middle of the Ancient Age.

Rushing will dominate the early game in multi-player. Against a strong opponent, if you see his Scout, you better prepare your defense. Here is a game where the early rush was made possible by the Expansionist trait; and where without the trait, the game was untenable.

http://www.zachriel.com/gotm5/

	25-09-2002 19:36									#24
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Nice new Avatar warp storm! how can i tell how close i am to 500 posts i want one too whaaaaa!!!

	25-09-2002 19:48									#25
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63, it in your profile

	25-09-2002 21:52									#26
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Maybe this is mean for me to say, but it seems to me that people who say that Expansionist is useless have no idea how to use it effectively. (note: this is not directed at people who don't like to use it, as everyone has their own preferences)

Expansionist is very effective in the hands of someone who knows how to use it. I would argue that this trait rewards the better players. It requires thought and strategic planning to use well and to its advantage. I view the other traits as fairly brainless. They give great benefits, cheaper buildings or what have you, but they are background effects. Religious actually takes some of the thought out of the game, as you no longer have to worry about a poorly timed revolution.

Expansionist you have to use effectively from year 1. If you sit on it, it will be worthless but if you can use it effectively it can turn into an overwhelming advantage. All ancient techs for free. I probably get at least 500-1000 gold early in the game (coupled with a 0 tech rate makes for a huge bank) Reconnaisance. Communications. and army of conscript warriors roaming around (can pick off a lonesome settler here and there early on).

Early control of the game.

For example: in my latest game, I sent off my scouts. They found several luxuries nearby (3 types, one of which was a cluster of 5) . I planted cities there when I had the chance, parking a conscript warrior (that I got for free) on each to guard. I then found other luxuries so that by 1 ad, I had ALL luxuries. Granted, I only had 1 or 2 of most. This meant that my cities were obscenely happy nearly the whole game. Coupled with techs at least 3 ahead of the nearest and a bank of probably 1500 at the start of the middle ages was just a huge lead.

Granted, that was on Monarch

On upper levels, the free techs are much more important as I can't get the ai to trade me anything, even if I have knights and they have tanks.


I'll stop now

	25-09-2002 22:06									#27
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hey guys everyones been talking of new improved commercial trait in 1.29..... but wat was exactly changed? please be more specific?

	25-09-2002 22:15									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Calc II hey guys everyones been talking of new improved commercial trait in 1.29..... but wat was exactly changed? please be more specific?

I'll give a try, though I may be off here

Increased optimal cities. was 12.5% more, now 25%

anything else? am i incorrect, just did a quick scan of the issue.

	26-09-2002 00:45									#29
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The early settler from a hut can come to any trait, I had only my second one ever on my current EMP game on std map, first hut I entered. This very powerful, if anyone can show that Expansion trait leads to more of them, then I will agree it is powerful. Otherwise, I don't really see it. It seems plain enought that you will get more elites and hence more leaders as a Mil civ and that is all game long and is very powerful. A key leader at a pivitol point in the game can be a major factor. At Monarch and above it may be your best chance to get some of the wonders in the first two ages. Especially above Monarch. It is no fun seeing the wonders build by the AI, one after another.

	26-09-2002 01:31									#30
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asleepatthewheel,

You're right about the increase in the OCN bonus, but I believe commercial civs were also given an additional +1/+2 commerce per city/metropolis.

As to the topic, well, those are my favorite traits, but I think Artifex overstates his point.

-Arrian