25-09-2002 07:08									#31
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All that will be achieved is more recruits for Hamas.

	25-09-2002 07:09									#32
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Having argued for the Palestinian cause for months, I would now like to pose a question to those supporting Palestine:

What would you do, if you were in Sharon's position?
Don't just say, "pull out of everyplace". Give some details.

I'm troubled because I myself don't know the answer.

	25-09-2002 07:15									#33
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Interesting how for centuries the Jews complained about being confined the ghettoes - and now they run them

	25-09-2002 07:18									#34
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quote: Having argued for the Palestinian cause for months, I would now like to pose a question to those supporting Palestine:

Give independence to Palestine. Stop taking their resources. Stop closures and curfews, take down trade barriers, open up immigration, etc.

	25-09-2002 07:27									#35
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quote: Interesting how for centuries the Jews complained about being confined the ghettoes - and now they run them

Not at all complained.

We were protected in the Ghettos from the racists in Europe.

	25-09-2002 07:31									#36
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Dino, I don't think ou quite got the point... Hamas doesn;t care about international opinion. Might even work against them, since if a fair deal was forced out of Sharon most palesinians wouldn;t support Hamas.

	25-09-2002 07:31									#37
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So now Sharon is like Hitler? What a joke. What are the Palestinians who kill innocents then, the poor oppressed Jews in ww2? Or our they "freedom fighters"? If that is the case then what are the children and women they kill, children and wives of Nazis? Statehood is now promised to the people of Palestine but that is not good enough. They insist on allowing their people to murder kids and women anyway. Reasonable people see these people that would like to annihilate Israel regardless of what they do for what they are; racists and bigots. And the people who support them do not love peace. They are motivated by hatred for Israel.

	25-09-2002 07:33									#38
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Don't even bother, Lincoln. CyberGnu is too far gone to listen to logic...

	25-09-2002 07:33									#39
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"Give independence to Palestine"

Another dictatorship.....


"Stop taking their resources"

Wtf??? What resources? Except water. Which I might add is a dead issue. You arent just going to give away all that H2o that keeps those countries alive. That is like gold in the desert. Thats a grey area. The Pal's should take what they can get and shut up. Israel obvouisly has the larger more modern population and is in a position to decide who gets what and how much.



"Stop closures and curfews"

Good. In lala land yes. In places like Biet Jalla-Gilo and areas bordering Jewish population. No. you see niether of the two would exist if it werent for a few thousand gunmen causing trouble in the wee hours of the night. Curfews are neccesary right now.


"open up immigration"

Ahh more suicide bombings

	25-09-2002 07:39									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Don't even bother, Lincoln. CyberGnu is too far gone to listen to logic...

Good idea Drake. I am out of here. Next, the suicide bombers will be compared to Martin Luther King.

	25-09-2002 07:40									#41
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Siro,

quote: You somehow assume that the hostilities on the Palestinian side are about to end. How optimistic of you.

If the occupation ceases, of course. Not optimiztic. realistic.

It is of course also realistic to believe that Israel will never willingly give up any of the occupied land.

quote: You seem to throw around nazi slang so knowingly. all dem "heil" and "der fuhrer" and "anschloss" just come naturally to you, I suppose.

No, it's actually called 'education'. You should try it.

quote: Furthermore, you proved your nazi nature in this paragraph: quote: The festering wound that is Israel corrupts the entire civilized world, showcasing how propaganda and sufficient bribe money for politicians can overcome ideals such as justice and freedom.

Illogical conclusion. Care to show how you made this deduction?

quote: What's the point of your rant? You automatically assume that Israel kills and targets civilians.

No, I just go with reality. Israel has in the last two year killed over 1600 palestinians, the vast majority of which civilians. Only an idiot would assume that Israel would stop now.

	25-09-2002 07:42									#42
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quote: Give independence to Palestine.

Ok.

Assuming they have a responsible pro-israel anti-terrorist regime.

quote: Stop taking their resources.

What about the magic word - Share.

You can't live on such a small patch of land and not work together.

And if you insist it belongs to the pals, Israel has some 1.2 Million Israeli Arabs, most of which see themselves as palestinians, but wish to remain Israeli citizens. How would you suggest they get the water that is rightfully theirs?

quote: Stop closures and curfews

Once our intelligence shows us there is little danger of suicid bombers - sure

quote: take down trade barriers[/q Once there is a relyable tracking system for funds, to make sure they don't go to sponsor attack on Israeli civilians. [q]open up immigration, etc

Nope - no way, no how.

No reason for immigration laws to be part of the equation.

Those who left - left. I don't see Jews knocking on doors in germany or russia or poland.

We can pay them some compensation for their property, and symbolic compensation to top.

But no Rights of Return. Ever.

Once 50 years have passed, and the pals lose the idea of pushing jews out of here, maybe we could make a joint bi-national and bi-ethnical federation.

Until that time - i don't mind them working or studying in Israel.

But they live in Palestine and they vote in Palestine.

	25-09-2002 07:43									#43
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Lincoln, actually yes. Jewish, polish, french, norwegian and ukrainian partisans all killed german civilians in WW2.

Could it be that the palestinians are killing people who are on the same side as you, which thus makes them criminal? Moral relativity... Yuck.

	25-09-2002 07:44									#44
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Drake, spoken like a man who cannot support his own opinion. Well, 'man' might be a bit far...

	25-09-2002 07:47									#45
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'Those who left, left'.

Nice, Siro. Nice. Might gives right.

Heil Sharon!

	25-09-2002 07:48									#46
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It's hard to support your opinion when you're dealing with a person who lacks even the most basic of reasoning skills. A person who cannot see the obvious differences between Israel and Nazi Germany isn't worth my time...

	25-09-2002 07:50									#47
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quote: No, it's actually called 'education'. You should try it.

Good to know you were educated well. You use those terms as your first language.

quote: Illogical conclusion. Care to show how you made this deduction?

You can't prove to a madman that he is a madman. It is well known.

I'm just trying to warn others.

quote: Israel has in the last two year killed over 1600 palestinians, the vast majority of which civilians. Only an idiot would assume that Israel would stop now.

Palestinians have in the last 2 years killed over 600 Israelis, the absolute majority of which were civilians which were specifically targetted. The Palestinians also used methods to ensure maximum damage to civilians, such as metal parts planted in bombs to be used as shrapnel.

Only a eurocom would assume the Palestinians will stop now.

	25-09-2002 07:51									#48
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quote: Another dictatorship.....

As opposed to right now? Palestinians do not have a say on what Israel does to its "occupied territories." Clearly, the Palestinians would prefer PLO rule to Israeli rule, so how is the former any more of a "dictatorship?"

BTW, no, I don't believe Arafat should have authority, rather a democratically elected government.

quote: Wtf??? What resources? Except water. Which I might add is a dead issue. You arent just going to give away all that H2o that keeps those countries alive. That is like gold in the desert. Thats a grey area. The Pal's should take what they can get and shut up. Israel obvouisly has the larger more modern population and is in a position to decide who gets what and how much.

Why should the Palestinians be forced to give up their water to Israelis when clearly they're more impoverished? Particularly given how unfairly the Israeli governement has distributed water to Palestinians.

quote: Good. In lala land yes. In places like Biet Jalla-Gilo and areas bordering Jewish population. No. you see niether of the two would exist if it werent for a few thousand gunmen causing trouble in the wee hours of the night. Curfews are neccesary right now.

Treating people like prisoners cities is never "necessary."

Yes, Palestinian terror is reduced if they're treated like prisoners, but that just means Israeli state terror increases.

quote: Ahh more suicide bombings

You can restrict everyone's liberties, and there'll be no suicide bombings, but I don't see how that's any better.

	25-09-2002 07:53									#49
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quote: 'Those who left, left'. Nice, Siro. Nice. Might gives right. Heil Sharon!

Ah, my friend of logical fallacy.

Your sentances are not logically connected to each other. Plus you're talking to 3 different people.

First quoting me to yourself.
Then talking to me.
Then addressing Sharon (or possibly talking to yourself) in a pattern you undoubtedly know from home.

	25-09-2002 07:54									#50
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CyberGnu, I am still trying to understand your logic on Sharon. The best I can come up with is that he is "stupidly" falling into Hamas's trap. I think you are correct that Hamas want to conquer Israel. To do that, it needs to inflame Arab opinion against Israel even more. An attack on Gaza certainly will do that.

Besides, it looks more and more that the UN will act on Saddam, who may be the Hamas's best and strongest Arab ally, and a provocation as great as an invasion of Gaza just might be enough to shift world opinion.

But back to Sharon. If he annouces his Gaza plan, Arafat just might crack down on Hamas. So ...the failure to annouce the plan is consistent, CyberGnu, with an intention simply to occupy Gaza and not let Arafat have a chance.

	25-09-2002 07:58									#51
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Ramo and CyberGnu:

Tell me,
what would be your plan to stop all the suicide bombings?

Tear down every single fence and checkpoint? Pull out all troops out of the West Bank and let the Palestinians vote for whomever they like? Give each and every Palestinian twice the money they deserve for their lost land? Sell them water at very low prices? Give all of them dual citizenship?!

And will that stop the suicide bombings?

Don't tell us what shouldn't be done. Tell us what should be done, and how that would help.

	25-09-2002 07:59									#52
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quote: but that just means Israeli state terror increases.

I disagree with calling it state terror.

Call it military actions. even call it opression.

State terror is a catch-phrase which I despise.

	25-09-2002 08:00									#53
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State terror is what it is. Sorry you don't like it.

	25-09-2002 08:03									#54
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Ned - the plan is not clearly officially announced, and my guess is that it won't be.

The press is full of these "sources" and "speculations" and today Sharon said during a cabinet meeting that IDF will go into Gaza.

But there will be no public and official statement. Because such a statement will lead to pressure on Israel to contain itself and will infact prevent Israel from acting in this way.

	25-09-2002 08:03									#55
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I'd like to hear about a single Palestinian civilian killed by the IDF, not because the IDF is afraid of getting killed in return, but because the IDF just feels like killing random Palestinian civilians, for the heck of it.

A single case, anyone?

	25-09-2002 08:04									#56
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quote: What about the magic word - Share You can't live on such a small patch of land and not work together.

Absolutely. But sharing is not equivalent to taking and redistributing unfairly.

quote: Once our intelligence shows us there is little danger of suicid bombers - sure

Do you not think closures and curfews are motivating people to become suicide bombers?

quote: Once there is a relyable tracking system for funds, to make sure they don't go to sponsor attack on Israeli civilians.

Um... not sure what you mean here. Are you suggesting impoverishing the Palestinian people so they can't send money to terrorist organizations?

quote: No reason for immigration laws to be part of the equation.

So you don't think Israel's restrictive immigration policy is contrbuting to terror?

Those who left - left. I don't see Jews knocking on doors in germany or russia or poland. [/quote]

Well, they do have an independent state in which they can freely prosper.

quote: Once 50 years have passed, and the pals lose the idea of pushing jews out of here, maybe we could make a joint bi-national and bi-ethnical federation.

Do most Palestinian Israelis want to push Jews out of the country? On the other hand, look at what parts of Likkud (sp?) have been proposing regarding what to do with Palestinians.

	25-09-2002 08:05									#57
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quote: State terror is what it is. Sorry you don't like it.

State terror is possibly what the US army at times did in Vietnam.

As long as Israel doesn't napalm the streets of gaza and doesn't execute whole neighbourhoods - it does not execute state terror.

Opression is in my eyes a more legitimate subjective description for it.

	25-09-2002 08:12									#58
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quote: I'd like to hear about a single Palestinian civilian killed by the IDF, not because the IDF is afraid of getting killed in return, but because the IDF just feels like killing random Palestinian civilians, for the heck of it. A single case, anyone?

There was a case that some may categorize as such, a few days ago.

I would rather think it was poor aiming - but it's your call to make.

A group of international activists and a palestinian were walking on the street in the west bank, defying curfew. Suddenly an Israeli APC shot at them, and killed the Palestinian.

He was reportedly not armed.

The people who were with him claim it's an Israeli targetted assassination, because that guy was a sort of a "tour guide" showing international activists around.

The more logical explanation (considering standard army warning-shot procedures) is that it was a warning shot that either bounced from the wall, or was poorly aimed.

In any case , I think part of the responsability falls on them, as they were knowingly and willfully defying a curfew, which the IDF said it would enforce.

This appeared on the 6 o'clock news, a wittness was interviewed and the IDF started an investigation into it.

	25-09-2002 08:16									#59
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quote: Tell me, what would be your plan to stop all the suicide bombings?

Stopping Palestinian oppression would help end terror. People generally don't decide they want to kill themselves and lots of other people for no reason.

quote: Tear down every single fence and checkpoint? Pull out all troops out of the West Bank and let the Palestinians vote for whomever they like?

Well, that is how a democracy works...

quote: Give each and every Palestinian twice the money they deserve for their lost land? I Sell them water at very low prices?

I'm not sure where I suggested that...

quote: Give all of them dual citizenship?!

I'd prefer it to take down all barriers to citizenship....

	25-09-2002 08:19									#60
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quote: As long as Israel doesn't napalm the streets of gaza and doesn't execute whole neighbourhoods - it does not execute state terror. Opression is in my eyes a more legitimate subjective description for it.

What do you consider terror?