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Sirotnikov
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<--- Yes, It's a "kitty" in a boot.
Feb 2000
time: 07:22
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Absolutely. But sharing is not equivalent to taking and redistributing unfairly.
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Agreed.
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Do you not think closures and curfews are motivating people to become suicide bombers?
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I do.
But their most important effect is making it harder for suicide bombers from entering Israel.
I will risk the possibility of creating another suicide bomber, to stop someone who I know is on his way to blow me up.
Plus, what makes for 95% of the motivation for sucide bombers is the education and incitement.
Suicide bombing is given the highest place in the palestinian society, both religion wise, and political-wise. This is the case in every group that ever used suicide bombings.
There are much more opressed groups than there are groups who use suicide bombing - that is because only some give the martyrs such divine status.
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Um... not sure what you mean here. Are you suggesting impoverishing the Palestinian people so they can't send money to terrorist organizations? |
No, I'm suggesting not giving them any money until we can see where it goes. and the EU seems to agree with me.
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So you don't think Israel's restrictive immigration policy is contrbuting to terror? |
nope.
US immigration policy is also restrictive. I'm poor. I will probably not get in. Does it mean i should somehow feel justified to use terror?
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Well, they do have an independent state in which they can freely prosper. |
The Palestinains technically have Jordan which is 78% of Historical Palestine, and has a 85% Palestinian majority.
But let us leave that alone.
Once they get an independant state in the west bank and Gaza - they will have a place in which they can prosper as much as they want - so no reason to go back to Israel.
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Do most Palestinian Israelis want to push Jews out of the country? |
A recent survey made by a palestinian body, showed that a large part of palestinians (around 40-50% i think) saw the intifada as a means to free "the entire land of palestine".
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On the other hand, look at what parts of Likkud (sp?) have been proposing regarding what to do with Palestinians. |
Do tell me what you think have they been proposing?
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Stopping Palestinian oppression would help end terror. People generally don't decide they want to kill themselves and lots of other people for no reason. |
Obviously everything has a reason. But that doesn't mean that every reason can be fulfilled.
The whole point of not appeasing terror, is that terror shouldn't be allowed as a legitimate way of pressure, to achieve goals.
If any goal is achieved via terror, and terror is rewarded, it gives a positive reinforcement to use terror for other goals.
The Israeli point of view is that the terror is being used against it to wear it down, and to get political achievements without negociations (ie, pressure the Israelis into giving more).
Thus the terms of the agreement will be
a) Israel agrees to withdraw
b) Pals agree to stop killing Israelis.
Such an agreement sets a bad precedent.
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Well, that is how a democracy works... |
Interesting.
I was sure there are checkpoints on the US borders. I was also thinking that immigration laws exist and are observed.
Perhaps I'm wrong, or is the US mexico border un-democratic and opressive??
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What do you consider terror? |
The use of illegitimate means (intentionall harming non-combatant innocent civilians) with the intention of creating fear and thus bullying the other side into awarding you an achievement for a promise to stop the violence.
But I agree for it to be used to all illegitimate means.
Israel has so far not used illegitimate means, even if it did on occassion hurt non-combatant civilians.
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But a non-Jew has a more difficult time becoming an Israeli. Look at the people who fled from there 50 years ago, for instance. Many of them still are not Israeli citizens. |
Those who fled either chose to fled, or were kicked out, usually due to ties with enemy arab armies, or organized resistance.
They either fled or were evicted because they refused to accept the legitimacy of the new country.
There is no basis for assuming they are willing to comeback and peacefully live in Israel, accepting it. Many cases demonstrate that some wish to comeback with the hidden agenda of eventually destrying Israel, whether by political means, or armed struggle.
Several palestinians who were allowed to return and were given Israeli citizenship, abused it, to aid suicide bombers. Thus, the process was stopped this year.
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Siro, Drake, well, if you can't support your own opinions, maybe you should just be quiet? |
Says the person who has never supported his opinion by anything other than "I've never heard of that case..." "your sources all lie" or some logical fallacies.
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I don't know. Probably not 50 years. Look at how fast terror declined from the IRA when the British gov't decided to treat the Irish decently, for instance.
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That terror is a bit different.
I've so far haven't heard of martyrdom being as sacred in the Irish culture.
Furthermore, there is general acceptance of the Irish, that the brittish are in Ireland to stay.
Not so with the Palestinians, and I bring the survey I quoted above as evidence. That and the fact that all palestinian maps depict Israel as a whole palestine, and most non-official Palestinian sources (ie not propoganda) state that they want to liberate "all" of palestine.
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Kontiki
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Canada
Aug 2001
time: 00:22
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I have a question to pose to all who favor Israel's tough stance:
Why doesn't Israel simply give the ultimatum "stop the terror attacks or we will come into the West Bank and Gaza and systematically slaughter every Palestinian man, woman and child"?
Obviously, there would be a huge international backlash, not to mention one within Israel itself. But seriously, if you think that the fear of reprisal is the most effective deterrant, wouldn't this be the ultimate deterrant?
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ranskaldan
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Beijing ~ Singapore ~ Toronto ~ All hail to the new Rome
Sep 2001
time: 00:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Kontiki
I have a question to pose to all who favor Israel's tough stance:
Why doesn't Israel simply give the ultimatum "stop the terror attacks or we will come into the West Bank and Gaza and systematically slaughter every Palestinian man, woman and child"?
Obviously, there would be a huge international backlash, not to mention one within Israel itself. But seriously, if you think that the fear of reprisal is the most effective deterrant, wouldn't this be the ultimate deterrant? |
I would like to throw the question back at you:
Do you favor a prison system to punish murderers, rapists, robbers, arsonists, etc? Do you favor a police force with the power to root out organized crime rings?
On the other hand, do you think we should kill the families of every single convicted murderer, rapist, robber, and arsonist? Isn't that the ultimate deterrant?
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Kontiki
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Canada
Aug 2001
time: 00:22
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quote:
Originally posted by ranskaldan
I would like to throw the question back at you:
Do you favor a prison system to punish murderers, rapists, robbers, arsonists, etc? Do you favor a police force with the power to root out organized crime rings?
On the other hand, do you think we should kill the families of every single convicted murderer, rapist, robber, and arsonist? Isn't that the ultimate deterrant? |
The answer to your first two questions is yes, I do. As for your second one, no it's not.
Having answered those questions, I'd like to ask you one:
How was that throwing the question back at me? Perhaps to be more accurate, you may have asked me if I favor a system where everyone is put under curfew with the threat of occupation should a crime be committed in a neighbourhood. How much are people going to respect the police then? Or maybe do I think the cause of all crimes is a perceived lack of punishment.
Let me be as blunt as possible. Having an automatic death penalty for all crimes are not going to stop crime ffrom happening. By the same token, using constant opression and threats in Palestine is not going to stop terrorist bombings. The point of my post is that if you think that it actually will, wouldn't the threat of mass extermination be the logical end?
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CyberGnu
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of the Virtual Serengeti
Apr 1999
time: 05:22
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A single instant? How EVERY SINGLE INSTANT WHEN ASKED?
If I present a fact to support my point, I'm prepared to back it up.
How about the argument about viability of the palestinian state, that you so conveniantly forgot? I presented a link to 'Le Monde', a well respected french news paper.
You claimed it was run by palestinians.
That might actually have been the dumbest argument I've seen on any of the ME threads...
the 'long list' you posted consisted of 12 points. I proved half of them irrelevant, proved 3 utterly wrong, conceeded one, and was left with 2 that I asked for a source on. You couldn;t find one, so I had to conclude that you made it up, or listened to someone who made it up.
I know it is hard, siro, when other people won't accept the statements you make up. People won't believe me when I tell them I have superpowers, for example, which makes me go home and cry myself to sleep. But I'm a big boy now. I have to learn to get over it.
Bah. Either learn how to think or go join your friends in those nice brown shirts.
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25-09-2002 08:19
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