25-09-2002 20:21									#31
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin It reads like a Hollywood script where the hero smiles affectionately down on the good deeds of his son/apprentice/whatever. I also think it would be hard for anyone being crucified to actually turn their head to face another person on a cross and smile at them. I don't recall the bible version saying he did that either. More likely Jesus would have made a thoughtful reply.

Well Jesus was a hero, and I dont find it hard to believe that he turned his head and smiled at the thief. Jesus expended a lot of physical effort throughout his life in the service of others, so I dont see why he wouldnt in this case.

	25-09-2002 20:21									#32
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Ah...misread you, thought you were talking about him speaking to the crucifyers, not other crucifyees...

	25-09-2002 20:34									#33
	Inflate your Upload Space

When the Lord said vengenance was his, I don't equate that with punishment for bad behavior.
Alll bad behavior from a child's misconduct to theft to rape to murder has varying and intensified punishment and/or consequences.

The vengeance is the possibility of burning for eternity in Hell. That's AFTER punishment on earth.

	25-09-2002 20:36									#34
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Although I don't believe in Hell, I still don't want to be refused entry to heaven.

	25-09-2002 20:40									#35
	Increase Your PM Length

My theory on why one can't exist without the other.
Frame of reference. A basis of comparison.
One can't know good without bad to compare it to.
Given that, one couldn't know the Ultimate Good without the Ultimate Bad.

	25-09-2002 20:44									#36
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I believe the ultimate bad (opposite of "heaven") is to vanish from existence, not burn in eternal hellfire.

	25-09-2002 20:47									#37
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin Jesus performed miracles on the Sabbath, and he wasn't renowned for being a hypocrite

This is specifically addressed in the scriptures.

And back to subject of Hell.
If you believe in Heaven, you believe in souls.
Is it your belief all souls go to Heaven, whether there is repentance or not?
If no, where do they go?

	25-09-2002 20:47									#38
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

What about the good old light comparison.

1) God is the light.
2) The measure of "luminosity" is the measure of light and not the measure of darkness.
3) Hence darkness is the lack of light and not a substance in its own right.
4) Hence being in the dark is simply being in nothingness.


Reminds of a Terry Pratchett quote "What is the speed of dark? Well it has to be faster than the speed of light in order to get out of its way". (or words to that effect)

	25-09-2002 20:56									#39
	Get a bigger avatar today!

That's still a comparison.

	25-09-2002 20:56									#40
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand And back to subject of Hell. If you believe in Heaven, you believe in souls. Is it your belief all souls go to Heaven, whether there is repentance or not? If no, where do they go?

I dont believe you go to heaven or hell and either relax on a cloud or suffer eternal agony. I believe that as mortals we are on the lowest level of creation, and must ascend through many other levels before reaching paradise. This only happens if we choose to do God's will. If we choose not to do God's will for long enough then we dont progress and eventually fade from existence.

	25-09-2002 21:02									#41
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand That's still a comparison.

What are you expecting?

quote: Is it your belief all souls go to Heaven, whether there is repentance or not? If no, where do they go?

All souls can go to heaven, there is no time limit on repentance - even after death you can repent.
If a soul does not repent, they stay in the dark until such point as they do repent.


I don't believe this to be true with any great conviction, but as a Christian based thought it is the one I am most inclined to believe.

	25-09-2002 21:18									#42
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Seeing as how the Death Penalty is practiced in the New Testament, I'd have to say it is a safe bet he didn't have much of a problem with it in principle.

	25-09-2002 22:07									#43
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I'm not criticizing the comparison, S.D., just noting it.
You're agreeing with my earlier reference statement.

As far as The Dark, I take it you mean sort of like a Catholic Purgatory?
I'm not Catholic, and think after you squeeze the toothpaste out it's too late to put back in the tube.
I agree that were a Soul to be standing at the gates of Hell, undoubtably repentance would hit near 100% participation.
I also think that's kind of crappy for people who at least made some kind of effort during their "earth lives" to do what's considered "right".
Then, WHAM! Living next door to Hitler or some other skank who never made effort 1.

	25-09-2002 22:15									#44
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Well Slow, good ol' J.C. was all about forgiveness - since Church leaders always need a consequence, they latched onto - "the bad thing that happens when you die if you don't give us money".

Anyways, why would it matter to an omnipotent being when you repent? Presumably he encompasses all time - so time loses meaning. One day, one hour, one millenia is the same on a comparative scale.

	25-09-2002 22:18									#45
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

All we have are opinions, Mac.
I'm giving mine is all. You'll never see me make the statement that all I believe is carved in stone tablets.

	25-09-2002 22:58									#46
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Yeah, it just seems silly that you want to believe that there is hell so that all that being good was worth something. I know that you don't really want to hurt tons of people, but it's one of those deals where you do all the extra work and you don't get anytyhing extra - of course you're not gonna like the slackers.

	25-09-2002 23:12									#47
	Support Apolyton

Someone please explain to me why so many people are unclear with this concept:

Thou shalt not kill.

I'm not seeing any amendments to that sentence. As the Ten Commandments are considered to be the DIRECT word of God (meaning the original tablets were written by God's own hand or an aproximation thereof) by Jews and Christians, and many Christians believe the Jesus was God incarnated in Human form...I just don't see how there's any wiggle-room for interpretation on this matter.

But then again, I'm not Judeo-Christian...

	25-09-2002 23:14									#48
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by DRoseDARs Someone please explain to me why so many people are unclear with this concept: Thou shalt not kill.

That isn't what the commandment actually says. It annoys me that people keep getting that wrong.

	25-09-2002 23:15									#49
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc That isn't what the commandment actually says.

Then what does it say?

What I stated is what I've heard all of my 21 years of life...

	25-09-2002 23:18									#50
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by DRoseDARs Then what does it say?

Thou shalt not murder.

There is no biblical prohibition against the death penalty.

	25-09-2002 23:21									#51
	Increase Your PM Length

Oh and the story about the adulterous woman Caligasta refers to on page one is a forgery.

	25-09-2002 23:26									#52
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Thou shalt not murder. There is no biblical prohibition against the death penalty.

My dictionary defines 'Murder' as the act of killing someone, particularly intentionally. 'Kill' is defined as the act of depriving of life.

Nope, not seeing the difference. I still don't get it.

(BTW: Sorry if I offended anyone 'bout not typing the 'correct' words of the commandment. But that's how religious texts are: different authors, different editing.)

	25-09-2002 23:33									#53
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by DRoseDARs Nope, not seeing the difference. I still don't get it.

Here's an essay by a Jewish author that should make the distinction clearer.

	25-09-2002 23:39									#54
	Tired of ads?

I'll read it later, DinoDoc.

But for now, "Hi ho, hi ho, to College Algebra I go..."

Thank you DinoDoc.

	26-09-2002 00:06									#55
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand As far as The Dark, I take it you mean sort of like a Catholic Purgatory?

Sort of, but I make the distinction that you are there until you feel you are ready, not until you are deemed to be "released".

quote: I agree that were a Soul to be standing at the gates of Hell, undoubtably repentance would hit near 100% participation.

As I say I don't believe in Hell, and so the gates of Hell means little to my way of thinking. I don't believe I will be stuffed in a burning fire or strung up on a torture rack by the Devil.

I guess you could refer my concept of lonelyness and nothingness as being my definition of Hell, but I just feel that Hell is the wrong term for what I believe

With regards 100% participation, that is no problem to me. I will not judge my happiness on what happens to others. The prodigal son is a parable that springs to mind.

quote: I also think that's kind of crappy for people who at least made some kind of effort during their "earth lives" to do what's considered "right". Then, WHAM! Living next door to Hitler or some other skank who never made effort 1.

I think you are retaining an "Heaven is like Earth" mentality. I don't think being upset about Hitler's arrival in heaven should be allowed to bother my soul. What I do is all that is important. A good parable on this issue is the parable of workers in the vineyard.

	26-09-2002 00:21									#56
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Oh and the story about the adulterous woman Caligasta refers to on page one is a forgery.

	26-09-2002 00:44									#57
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Of course Jesus wouldn't have supported the death penalty.
Here is a passage from the bible
John 8
3The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" 6They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.
7But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her

Clearly, Jesus reprimands the group attempting to initiate the death penalty on the woman in question. Not to mention the death penatly goes against the nature of Jesus' message of love, forgiveness, and turning the other cheek. It makes me sad that many of my Christian brothers support such an evil practice. I will pray this evening that God gives them the strength to see past Satan's trickery.

	26-09-2002 00:46									#58
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by MacTBone Yeah, it just seems silly that you want to believe that there is hell so that all that being good was worth something. I know that you don't really want to hurt tons of people, but it's one of those deals where you do all the extra work and you don't get anytyhing extra - of course you're not gonna like the slackers.

You misunderstand.
I was talking of comparative good vs. evil.
Hell is not what makes going to Heaven good, it's the ultimate basis of comparison.
Additionally, I said I disagree that lost souls stay in a holding pattern until they ultimately decide that what they did was wrong.

Naturally, again, this is merely my opinion based on no 1st hand experience.

	26-09-2002 00:48									#59
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Godbear John 8 3The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" 6They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him. 7But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her

This is part of the forgery I was refering to earlier, Cali.

	26-09-2002 00:52									#60
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

And this, "Sort of, but I make the distinction that you are there until you feel you are ready, not until you are deemed to be "released".

I disagree with entirely.
How and why would The Person make the distinction and ruling? Were that the case, they wouldn't be there at all, because when they kicked the bucket they didn't feel they were wrong; and if they HAD kicked the bucket, and believed they'd done wrong, again, no Holding Pattern.
See what I'm trying to think and say?