26-09-2002 00:55									#61
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quote: Originally posted by DRoseDARs Nope, not seeing the difference. I still don't get it.

"Murder" is unlawful and/or unjustified killing. F'rinstance, killing in self defense is generally considered to be justified, hence it isn't murder but it's still killing.

	26-09-2002 00:57									#62
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How can you call it a forgery? It is directly lifted from the Bible. Surely you have not degenerated so far as to consider the bible a forgery have you?

	26-09-2002 01:00									#63
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I'm with Godbear on this one... I don't understand how followers of Christ would agree with the death penalty.

Actually Calig I think your thoughts on hell may be right in one aspect. In that the fire that one is consumed by is the knowledge of what they are missing, and that is being in communion with God, their creator.

I also agree with Slowhand as I don't think there is a purgatory. I don't understand how one would gain the desire to go to heaven after 1 year, or a thousand when they know when they die what is missing. Granted if there is a purgatory, then this is a good thing in that many souls will not suffer too long. Of course I leave this with God as He is the one in charge.

	26-09-2002 01:00									#64
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Godbear: There's evidence that some parts of the Bible are forgeries; DinoDoc wasn't saying that the entire bible was a forgery, just that this particular section was a forgery.

	26-09-2002 01:02									#65
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And this:
"I think you are retaining an "Heaven is like Earth" mentality. I don't think being upset about Hitler's arrival in heaven should be allowed to bother my soul. What I do is all that is important. A good parable on this issue is the parable of workers in the vineyard."

I'm saying if a person dies unrepentant, and I only ASSUME Hitler did die with that state of mind, and since I don't believe in a "holding pattern", that it's a bummer, in a way.
I agree it wouldn't be on my mind once There.
I'm saying that looking at it Here it doesn't make sense to me. Just me, in particular.
An educated Minister, Priest, whoever might feel differently entirely.
But let me go waaaaay out on a limb here and make a semi-bold statement.
Just because the clergy is educated on historical aspects of the Bible, and have a greater insight into some of the Word, their opinion on Heaven and who's there is still no better than mine, a shot in the dark.
That may piss off the minister for me to say that, but hey, that's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.
Let me add that in the long run, I know all will be wrong, because it's going to be better than any can imagine.

	26-09-2002 01:03									#66
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Thank you for your support Adam. I think Dino is probably a good person overall, he has just let Satan enter his heart and ignore the teachings of our savior.

	26-09-2002 01:03									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Godbear How can you call it a forgery?

Quite easily.

quote: It is directly lifted from the Bible.

That's not entirely correct. The story isn't present in the oldest manuscripts of the Gospel of John, but was added later by unknown person or persons.

	26-09-2002 01:05									#68
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Loin- I have never heard of any such claims before. I am aware that certain passages are most likely forgeries, such as the part at the end of Mark for example. However, I have never heard of anyone considering that particular story a forgery though. On the contrary, it is one of the most beloved stories of the New Testament, and it syncs perfectly with Jesus' overall message.

	26-09-2002 01:08									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Godbear Thank you for your support Adam. I think Dino is probably a good person overall, he has just let Satan enter his heart and ignore the teachings of our savior.

Uhm... I wouldn't go that far. I really am not one to presume that Dino is ignoring the teachings, rather just looking at it from a different prespective.

	26-09-2002 01:10									#70
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I was not aware of that. In any event, if you are going to support the death penalty you are going to have to prove that Jesus' overall message of forgiveness, love, and turning the other cheek are suddenly overlooked so that a man can be put to death. That passage is really not nescarry to condemn the practice of capital punishment.

Moreover, I am a believer in that God intended the Bible to look the way it does currently. The Bible is our only way of understanding his laws, and how we should go about our lives and God intended that passage to be included.

	26-09-2002 01:33									#71
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Another DL, how original.


Sloww, I agree to disagree, as obviously no-one is going to have any greater insight into the possibilities than anyone else. The way you view death is probably a reflection of how you view life. Its a reflection of how you see your place in existance and how your moral code works. That's my view at any rate.

BTW, I do see what you are saying about "holding patterns" but I am coming from a completely different viewpiont. I don't believe time is an issue after you die for example, so "purgatory" is not about hanging around just to change your mind. Its more about another journey that you make.

But who really knows, I sure don't. Until our creator says "Come in #12,678,465,924 your time is up" we won't.

	26-09-2002 01:36									#72
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I wonder if purgatory is another round down here? You just keep doing it until you get it right.

	26-09-2002 02:33									#73
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I don't think Jesus supports the Death Penalty. God is the ultimate and final judge, and if we were to judge others, they would have every right to judge us for our own transgressions. Personally, I'd rather let a just judge deal with mine.

Don't know if this is exactly what I want, but:

quote: Judge not, that you be not judged. Matthew 7:1 NKJV

As for any other controversies, I find Answers in Genesis to be a great resource. Such similarly related subjects include euthanasia and abortion. But lets not get into that here.

	26-09-2002 02:35									#74
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There is an element of truth on both sides of this argument. As a Christian we are suppposed to do as Jesus did to the woman caught in the act of adultry -- i.e., forgive her. In fact we are even commanded by Jesus to forgive our enemies. There really is no room for a vindictive attitude from those who call themselves followers of Jesus.

The death penalty however is a civil law that is administered by government officials. The civil government (when not entirely corrupt)a acts in the place of God to maintain a degree of order in society. Those acting on the behalf of civil government are authorized to punish lawbreakers including murderers. The extreme punishment is death if it is administered in this context. No where however in the New Testament will you find Christians commanded to kill anyone, ever. Blood thirsty "Christians" are not acting in accordance with the teachings of Jesus.

	26-09-2002 02:42									#75
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Lincoln- Well put, as christians however, it is our duty to oppose laws such as the death penalty. Just because it is being administrated by a secular organization doesn't mean that christians should support it, or remain indifferent to it.

	26-09-2002 02:52									#76
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What you say has some truth in it, at least about the civil gov't being a fill-in for God's judgement:

quote: 13 Therefore submit yoursleves to every ordinance (institution) of man for the Lord's sake, whether to the king as supreme, 14 or to governors, as to those who are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and for the praise of those who do good. 15 For this is the will of God, that by doing good you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men- 16 as free, yet not using liberty as a cloak for vice (wickedness), but as bondservants of God. 17 Honor all people. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king. 1 Peter 2:13-17 NKJV

	26-09-2002 03:50									#77
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I sort of agree with Lincoln...
We as individuals should not even think of applying the death penalty to anyone by our own hands...personally we should all absolutely reject it, in theory.

However, if a government executes someone after a fair trial and treatment, we should accept it as a way of enforcing established law...but a horrible one at that.

The truth is, this is often not exactly case these days, as many people have suffered the death penalty under suspicious or at least dubious circumstances, not being given a fair chance at defending themselves, foreigners executed in disregard of treaties, lack of access to DNA proof, etc...

Therefore, in my opinion we should still try to remove this penalty in our states/countries, if we so desire, even if the Bible isn't directly opposed to it in the legal context...

	26-09-2002 04:26									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin Another DL, how original. Sloww, I agree to disagree, as obviously no-one is going to have any greater insight into the possibilities than anyone else. The way you view death is probably a reflection of how you view life. Its a reflection of how you see your place in existance and how your moral code works. That's my view at any rate. BTW, I do see what you are saying about "holding patterns" but I am coming from a completely different viewpiont. I don't believe time is an issue after you die for example, so "purgatory" is not about hanging around just to change your mind. Its more about another journey that you make. But who really knows, I sure don't. Until our creator says "Come in #12,678,465,924 your time is up" we won't.

You're probably right on all points, Dolphin.

All,
In regard to "turning the other cheek", I've made the statement before; it's not addressed how one should react when the other cheek gets slapped spitless.
Also, Jesus Christ was NOT some meek little fellow who merely went around performing miracles.
He had some "kick some ass" moments of his own.

	26-09-2002 06:53									#79
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Also, Jesus Christ was NOT some meek little fellow who merely went around performing miracles. He had some "kick some ass" moments of his own.

Hehe, kinda like when he kicked all of those merchants out of the temple. That was cool

	26-09-2002 07:52									#80
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I'd like to know what Jesus thinks about parking inspectors.

	26-09-2002 09:26									#81
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I find it interesting that some Christians seek to wash their hands of the Death Penalty like modern Pilots.

	26-09-2002 09:40									#82
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OK, so - if one Christian nation declared war on another - is that murder?

What about, drunk driving and hitting a car killing someone - it could be considered murder because you made the decision to drive while drunk, but while driving you would not have made a point of hitting that car?

Hmm, what about being on a jury that hands out a death sentence, is that murder - or is the only murderer/killer the guy that flips the switch/fires the gun (for you Texans )/or injects the lethal dose?

Is gross negligence murder?

Is euthanasia murder?

See, if we can't define murder, there isn't much point going on about this.

BTW, lately I've heard many Christians telling me that Hell's not really that fiery place, it's just the absence of God which is supposed to be really not good. So, what about an Athiest? They shouldn't be in the presence of God, I mean they don't believe in any including the Almighty Thor. So, is this their hell?

Personally, I think I'm going to try and bring back the Norse Gods, I'd really like to check out Valhalla - especially if Val Hallen shows up.

	26-09-2002 10:14									#83
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quote: Originally posted by MacTBone See, if we can't define murder, there isn't much point going on about this.

1. Murder is a well-defined term: it means unjustified/unlawful killing.

2. The question here is not whether the DP is morally justified. The question is What Would Jesus Do.

	26-09-2002 23:10									#84
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand In regard to "turning the other cheek", I've made the statement before; it's not addressed how one should react when the other cheek gets slapped spitless.

FYI all: "Turning the Other Cheek" could easily have been a form of non-violent defiance in Jesus's day. Normally a superior (i.e. Roman) would hit a person he regarded inferior (i.e. non-Roman, esp. Jew) with the back of his/her right hand. By turning the other cheek, the person hit challenges his abuser to hit him/her the only other way they can: with their open, right hand, which is a sign of equality. (BTW, hitting with the left hand was taboo). (Think of the open hand hit almost like the more current idea of demanding a dual.)

On the question of the DP . . . this is Gov't jurisdiction and it is the perogative of the state to wield the sword both in war and in punishment (at least according to Paul). As for Jesus, I think the DP would be viewed by him much as he viewed divorce: a necessary but lamentable way to address the evil/imperfection of the world.

	26-09-2002 23:17									#85
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The DP is nowhere *near* as necesarry as divorce. To simply acquiesce the sinful DP as being an "unfortunate necessity" is a very poor christian attitude to have. It is a Christian's duty to oppose any sins, regardless of how powerful and ingrained in our culture they may be.

	26-09-2002 23:17									#86
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I'm not sure the comparison is equatable to divorce though. As divorce was a last resort sort of issue. Where as the DP is never required when incarcaration is available. Especially in that the longer a person lives the more time they have to coming to God.

	26-09-2002 23:53									#87
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I'd like to see the people who say that Jesus wouldn't approve of the DP provide me with an explination of how they get around the fact that Jesus never said anything about it.

Last edited by DinoDoc on 27-09-2002 at 00:21

	27-09-2002 01:49									#88
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Exactly as Nov. Adam said, if we don't kill them, then we have more time to bring them to Christ. By sentencing someone to death (who isn't a Christian), we are pretty much condeming them to eternal damnation in Hell (which is a very real and scary place. I forget the passages, but they give a DETAILED description of it). I'd rather bless them, or at least have the chance to bless them, with an eternity with Christ. Wouldn't you?

	27-09-2002 01:49									#89
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DinoDoc,
Jesus said at some point "Don't judge". I think this makes any discussion about DP after a trial unnecessary, which would leave as the only possibility a DP without trial ...
Certainly, Jesus didn't comment about any punishment without trial, but he maybe wasn't aware about sick morons who switch off their good common sense only to prove/disprove religious terms. (Hammurabi established the right to get a trial according to laws around 1700 BC -- and he probably wasn't the first one to do so --, and it became common sense by the time of Jesus).

	27-09-2002 02:07									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Adalbertus Certainly, Jesus didn't comment about any punishment without trial, but he maybe wasn't aware about sick morons who switch off their good common sense only to prove/disprove religious terms.

This whole discussion is moot if we accept this premise.