25-09-2002 16:24									#1
	One of my cities flipped to the AI which was miles away from my territory.... Remove this text

Has anyone seen this happen:

I have a large country, mainly because I assimilated the Americans into my Apache country (I don't like the name Iroquois and Apache is more apealing). I am now building up culture and my economy. This is necessary because I am way behind in tech for a while now...

Suddenly I have one of my smaller cities flip to the Indians. WTF? They are on an island on the other side of the globe. True, their culture is very high. They have been on a large island alone, so they have been expanding like hell.....

The only reason I can think of is that they used a spy to perform a propaganda action to let it flip.

Anyway I don't think I will finish this game, because I just have discovered nationalism and medicin, while the Indians started building The Manhattan Project and the UN....

The funny thing is that I am still on number 2 on the ranking because of my large country.

I will post a sav soon.

	25-09-2002 18:07									#2
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Most likely an espionage mission.

...however, there is one thing that I don't know and always bothered me:

Looking at the city flipping formula, it is obvious that for a flip you must have either overlapping tiles (which is not your case) or foreign nationalities. Now, these foreign nationalities, can be from any different nationality than yours or must be the same nationality as the civ where the city is flipping?

If the first statement is true, then maybe your city had some americans that produced the flipping.

	25-09-2002 18:46									#3
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You better expose that enemy mole before you lose any more. You should also build more culture and happiness improvements, it's next to impossible to flip a city (through espionage) once it has expanded it's borders once or twice.

	25-09-2002 19:07									#4
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Yes, try to expose the indian spy, so at least we will know what was that: espionage or plain flipping?

	25-09-2002 19:32									#5
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You have some bigger problems than that, if you are one full age behind the AI. It sounds like you're not building enough temples/libraries/univ. etc.

	25-09-2002 20:24									#6
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Well, i did some culturebuilding, but obviously not enough and also too late. Also the Great Wonders mostly passed me by beacuse of my lack of tech....

I did have foreign nationals, but only Americans if I recall correctly. I will look into that tonight.

And to Wormwood: Yes, I have REAL problems. I have been building temples etc., but started doing that a little too late. Also the Indians are a real BIG civ. You will see that in the sav I will post soon.

Have to go now, till later!

	25-09-2002 20:24									#7
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Funny, the same thing happened to me last night. I'm the leading civ in the world, but only have the 3rd-best culture. I went on a warmongering run at one point to capture most of the Wonders, and in the process took most of the Indians' cities. Well I went through the process of starving those cities down to 4-6 pop., then rush building improvements. One of the cities I took was FAR FAR away from their "new" borders and was captured a good 100 turns or so beforehand, yet it still flipped! The best way to deal with this is make sure there are no overlapping tiles (of which I had none) and make sure you have two military units for every one foreign national in that city. That'll prevent flipping, which is exactly what I did after I reloaded.

	25-09-2002 20:31									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Kampus majore I did have foreign nationals, but only Americans if I recall correctly. I will look into that tonight.

How do those americans count in the flipping formula, (given the fact that you are Apache and the civ where your city flipped is India), this is the question!

Could you post a culture chart screenshot?

	26-09-2002 04:52									#9
	Increase Your PM Length

In a recent game, I played as Rome, on Huge Earth Map. I controlled N and S America, Greenland, and most of Australia. I had huge culture. I had defeated Persia, in S. America, and they were culutrally right behind me. One of hte cities I captured, Persepolis, which had J.S. Bach's Cathedral, was right in the heart of S.America, garrisoned with 2 MI, surrounded by many other high culture cities, and right next to my newly moved palace one city over. And yet, it still flipped to the Persians, who had one city in "England". Sometimes, you just have to deal with these sorts of things. I promptly nuked the Persian city in "England", in "retaliation" for the offense, and sent my "honor guard" of legions to take the remains of the city. At least it made me feel better

	28-09-2002 14:28									#10
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Hey is Coracle ill? Normally he would have already posted here .

	28-09-2002 14:34									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Tiberius ...however, there is one thing that I don't know and always bothered me: Looking at the city flipping formula, it is obvious that for a flip you must have either overlapping tiles (which is not your case) or foreign nationalities. Now, these foreign nationalities, can be from any different nationality than yours or must be the same nationality as the civ where the city is flipping? If the first statement is true, then maybe your city had some americans that produced the flipping.

Tiberius, sorry to be late in answering. In the formula, the foreign citizens have to be from the same nationality as the country to which you are flipping. If there were a bunch of Americans inside, and a city does not overlap with the Aztecs, it will never flip to the Aztecs. That has to be caused by an espionage mission.

DeepO

	28-09-2002 15:11									#12
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I remember seeing this in my very first game of Civ3, but then the city was flipping to me! I was in some kind of World War II or III(bad boy in that game? me!), and then suddenly I got a city in the middle of the opposing civ flipping to me... I had a huge culture, but the civ was B-I-G. Naturally, I lost the city very soon. But I won the game!

	28-09-2002 16:18									#13
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It really sucks when you lose good units in a flip,has this happened to anybody.
However revenge is usually sweet.

	29-09-2002 18:55									#14
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Hi all,
I have never seen a culture flip like that.
I use culture flipping by building cities one square away from an AI city then waiting after pumping in the cultural improvements. Its a good way to take cities without causing a war.

I disagree that all the armies you have should disappear. There should be refugees which you have to take back to your CIV. Maybe a city size 8 flips and 3 pops are now other CIVs, 3 pops are your CIV who like it there. 2 Pops are then refugees, not settlers, that have to go back to one of your cities, may be attacked by other civ if they do not like you but will be close to border or you send a ship if on an island. Maybe also half the armies are saved with half health but have to do battle in enemy territory or as with refugees evacuate by ship or go to your territory.

If another civ really likes your culture you should also receive some of there population in immigration and this does not have to be only close by CIVS. Look at how the world is today, there are millions of people around the world for various reasons not living in there country of birth. This is a very important effect. If the culture flip was measured and visible you could see from the game that more people in your city are from other CIVS. It could just be a list in a drop down menu from the population in city screen. If a warning is introduced that the 'foreign' population of a city is dangerously high then you could build improvements to offset it/introduce a larger military presence.

I am a fan of culture flip but it should have more warning before it happens.

Regards
Sun_Tzu

	30-09-2002 10:50									#15
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Thanks for the answer, DeepO. Good to know that.

I guess the formula is meant to be simple, but I don't agree with this part of it. Foreign citizens should have a role, even if they are not the same nationality as the country where the city is supposed to flip.

Let me exemplify what I was thinking:
If the turks took a greek city, in civ3 the city wouldn't have any possibility to flip to the romans (let's presume we don't have overlapping tiles), while in "reality" the citizens would prefer to join the Roman Empire (a civ from the same cultural block) instead of the Ottoman rule, don't you think?

Maybe in this case 2 foreigners should count as 1 foreign citizen from the current formula, so there would be a chance for flipping, even if a small one.

	30-09-2002 21:26									#16
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Tiberius, maybe your example is valid, but I think it is already complicated enough... it's okay like it is calculated now. Plus don't forget that even if you count every foreign citizen as half a citizen of another nation, you increase the flipping chances a lot: in a game with 16 tribes, whenever a citizen has a foreign member, it could flip not to one, but to 15 other nations... a bit too much if you ask me.

To Nikolai: you do not always see what is happening, which means sometimes you don't understand it either... something that the AIs do quite regularly is to add slave workers to cities. If you do that, you gain a foreign city in the middle of your territory, which can cause problems of course. I lost a city like that once too: I created a wonder building city from my second city, and added a bunch of captured workers to it to get it quickly to a decent size. After my first wonder was build, it flipped on me

From now on, I only add workers to my capital, as it can't flip (or at least I have never heared of a capital flipping). Other workers added are always my own, or slaves from a tribe that has been exterminated. And yes, I do use it a lot to buy workers from a tribe, and add these instantly to my capital: those 30 gold a worker costs is no comparison to the added advantage for you, and the disadvantage to the other in the beginning of the game. Just remember that having slaves running around will deteriorate your relations with their home country...

DeepO

	01-10-2002 09:15									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Traelin make sure you have two military units for every one foreign national in that city. That'll prevent flipping, which is exactly what I did after I reloaded.

I say that you should just starve or pop rush all of your foreign nationals. That way you don't have to worry about cities flipping back to their former civ. I usually rename the cities after they have been "cleansed"

	01-10-2002 11:10									#18
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I am fond of starving them down to size 2 or even 1. Start them on a temple or rush it and let them bring in my 1 shield till the game ends if my empire is large enough.

	01-10-2002 15:53									#19
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Well I figured out what happened:

The Indians declared war on me a while ago. Since they were far away I did not worry. They landed some units on my shores and also a settler. I got rid of all of them.

Later I used the workers out of that settler to speed up the growth of this city. And now it flipped.....

Here is a sav:

Attachment: strange thing with indians in dallas.zip
This has been downloaded 2 time(s).

	01-10-2002 16:14									#20
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO in a game with 16 tribes, whenever a citizen has a foreign member, it could flip not to one, but to 15 other nations... a bit too much if you ask me.

Not to 15 nations, only to 3 or 4 or so: only to nations from the same cultural group as the foreign citizens, so only to every 5th civ.

Don't get me wrong, I can live with the current calculations. It's just something I'd like changed, if possible.

	01-10-2002 23:38									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Kampus majore The Indians declared war on me a while ago. Since they were far away I did not worry. They landed some units on my shores and also a settler. I got rid of all of them. Later I used the workers out of that settler to speed up the growth of this city. And now it flipped.....

Yep, that's what I posted above... It happened to me once too. But you learn from this, critical cities do not get captured workers anymore, or it has to be my capital, or the other nation is extinct (but then, slaves are really worth their money: free workers, without any repurcussions!)

Tiberius: from the same cultural group could work, but it would still, IMHO, make things too complicated. Even now a lot of players don't understand exactly what is happening, which leads to too many complaints already. That would only get worse

DeepO

	02-10-2002 10:05									#22
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO Tiberius: from the same cultural group could work, but it would still, IMHO, make things too complicated. Even now a lot of players don't understand exactly what is happening, which leads to too many complaints already. That would only get worse DeepO

I don't mind if they won't understand why did their cities flip to me

	02-10-2002 15:49									#23
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I did not know or maybe realize that foreign workers trouble your relationship with other civs. Now I know why even my most friendly neighbour eventually became mad at me!

Now I have all my "slaves" disbanded, so their attitude is approving.

By the way, how do you keep up in tech with the AI on Emperor level or higher? In this game I was really behind, but in my current game I also have fallen behind. I am closing in, but not fast enough I'm afraid. How do you guys deal with this problem?

	02-10-2002 20:55									#24
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Kampus, I never disband slaves, that is a waste. Indeed, they trouble your relations with the original civ, but who cares? If you want to get rid of them, there are a couple of possibilities:
- you can disband them (baddest solution)
- you can add them to one of your own cities (look out if you have cultural problems for flipping)
- you can destroy the other civ (free slaves!)
- you can sell them back to the same civ, which will improve your relation with him. However, it will also give him an advantage
- you can sell them to another civ, thus making his relation with the original civ worse
- personally, if I want to stop the slavery, I add it to a city which is at the point of building a settler. With a bit of luck, the settler will take 2 pop points: one of your own, and the slave. If you later build a city with that settler, it will be your own nationality.
You could of course also do this with a settler with multiple foreign citizens, but if you take 2 foreigners of the same kind, the settler will be of that nationality. If you later build a city with it, it will start with a foreigner as pop.

How to keep up with tech on Emperor: trade techs (researching yourself the techs the AIs won't research first), or extort them through war. Or, if you see someone gains an important tech, buy it from him (will be very expensive if you're the second to get it), and sell it to everyone else to recuperate the cost. In the right situation, being a tech broker will even profit you.

Further, look out for the 2 tech wonders: in Emperor it is possible to get the great library first without a leader (on deity it is not), through this wonder you will be able to set research to 0% and still be up to date. Use that money to build either research infrastructure, or wage war.
The ToE is, in my mind, the best on Emperor: if you bee-line towards it, and gain atomic theory and electronics through it, you can sell atomic theory to everyone else for all the techs you might have missed, plus most of the times all the money the world is rich. This will keep you one tech in front, and is most of the time the turning point in a game that wasn't superb to start with.

DeepO

	02-10-2002 21:36									#25
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO - you can sell them to another civ, thus making his relation with the original civ worse DeepO

Wow, good idea. Twisted and evil; I like it !

	02-10-2002 21:51									#26
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yeah... too bad you will only get 30 gold for them But all civs will buy all the workers you offer to them, as long as they can pay it. In one of my games, I was buying workers from one civ, just to immediately sell them to another. If you look out, you can easily buy 20 workers in a game, especially in the earliest stages (when the capital is building workers a lot). They can really make a difference then

DeepO

	02-10-2002 22:05									#27
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Actually I'm even considering giving them for free, as a gift! I consider it as an investment in espionage.

Yamm, yamm, I can't wait to start some puppet wars with this strategy

	02-10-2002 22:13									#28
	Inflate your Upload Space

What do AI civs do with freshly bought workers? Do they add them to cities or keep them for work? Because if they add them to their cities, then maybe I'll give them some of my beloved workers ...

	04-10-2002 03:59									#29
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now, don't get over excited... I only sold them other slaves yet, I did not plan on giving them one of my own citizens... I do not know what they do to them (it might depend on the situation), but lettting cities flip because you gave them slaves seems a bit too much. The chances aren't that big, with only on foreign citizens they are rather slim. Add to this that you don't gain an advantage when your slaves are working for them, and it seems not worth giving... better to buy those slaves

DeepO

	04-10-2002 10:55									#30
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I suppose you're right
Still, I think I'm going to do some experiments. Who knows?