26-09-2002 00:05									#1
	War Academy: Strategy for the American campaign Suffering from ads?

I think it's pretty obvious why we want to attack America some time after we're done with Persia: 4 more incense, 1 more iron, flood plains with wheat and a chance to use our War Chariots against American archers to initiate a Golden Age (if you've been following the GA disucssions you'll know that this is our best chance to get a GA in the game).
The question is, how are we going to handle the Americans? Which cities to attack first? Which units to use? Etc'.
I've started this thread so everyone can post his suggestions and thoughts regarding these issues. I'll begin:

* First city to attack: Chicago, because if we have to end the war prematurely, at least we'll get the extra incense tiles.
* Units to use: send a stack of two knights and two or three War Chariots, followed by pikemen (to garrison cities after we capture them). The knights will fight the American spearmen, while the WCs will be reserved for battles against American archers, which they can easily win and thereby trigger a GA. After the GA is triggered, move the WCs into a city and upgrade them to knights, and then continue to sweep over America.

Last edited by Shiber on 26-09-2002 at 19:06

	26-09-2002 00:17									#2
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I was just reading on the GA over in the General forum, and Most are saying that captured Wonders do count, sorta.

If you capture a wonder it will not initiate a GA. However, if you HAVE captured one that fills a trait, THEN build one that fills the second trait, it WILL trigger the GA. I could link you to about 70 posts on the topic, but am being a bit lazy at the moment. Just thought I would put this out there in case we somehow capture Pyramids first.

	26-09-2002 00:32									#3
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IMHO we're building the Sistine and taking Persepolis this turnchat, so we'll know in a few hours.

	26-09-2002 00:43									#4
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Assault order:

1)Washington
2)Chicago

3)Death Blow/Mop Up

	26-09-2002 01:11									#5
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I thought the major assult on Persepolis was next turn chat due to the forces needed to recover from their last assult.

Well, if we don't want to chance having a GA now and want to wait for America, we have to build Sistine Chapel first.

(The sort of count would result in us getting a GA the next time we build any Wonder at all after aquiring Persepolis.)

Now back to the "offical topic" of this thread.

Why not send ALL War Chariots after America along with some Knights. Either use one of the WCs against an archer/long bowmen or else a weakned spearman.
After the first WC wins, upgrade all of them to Knights.

Knights can do double duty as defense until Gunpowder is discovered.

Just be sure to have a couple of defense units on the French (and other) borders in case we get betrayed again.

	26-09-2002 04:12									#6
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

First trade them something for all they have. It should be a one time deal, no per turn trades. If we obligate ourselves to providing say...dyes, we will take a reputation hit.

then, I think we should use overwheamling force taking america out of the game in a single turn. This will keep them from dragging anyone else into the war. I still need to look at the save and verify this as a possibility.

Hell, we can even make an alliance with the aztecs and wipe out the americans ourselves. They will love us for it.

Mss

	26-09-2002 05:05									#7
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Manic, that's a great idea! We can position fast units at the borders of every city and then destroy America in one turn!
Regarding the alliance, what's interesting is that the Aztecs will pay us to ally against America, and maybe other civs will ally and pay us as well. This has to be checked before we attack America so that we don't miss any opportunities.

	26-09-2002 07:10									#8
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ooh i like the idea... but do we have enough mobile units to crack into american cities in one turn? how many will we need (probably 3 per city to be safe).

	26-09-2002 07:14									#9
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

though im sad to hear our military campaign will go on after persia... but america will be short anyway..

does ur reputation get affected if you sign military alliance while you are at peace with the target?

if so, i guess we have to cancel peace treaty then sign alliance.....

	26-09-2002 07:16									#10
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Don't forget France is also a likely target.

	26-09-2002 07:19									#11
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We would certainly need a lot of mobile units. The Americans have 4 cities and we'll need to cover them all, and put enough units in each stack to be able to assure that we destroy the Americans in the first turn of the war.
Let's hope that New York flips by the time we get to dealing with America. This will make the task much easier.

	26-09-2002 08:33									#12
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Anyway, the ManicStarSeed's idea is really good! We can do this with some planning; 12 units (including the war chariots), according Calc II, can do the job. We have now four Knights and four WC's. With granaries, we’ll grow fast, and our production too.
Moreover, we will trigger our GA!

	26-09-2002 08:45									#13
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I'll have a more detailed post another day, but I chatted with Aggie about the general topic of war with America, and he also was thinking something in the range of ten units or so if I recall correctly.

-- adaMada

	26-09-2002 10:56									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Aro Anyway, the ManicStarSeed's idea is really good! We can do this with some planning; 12 units (including the war chariots), according Calc II, can do the job. We have now four Knights and four WC's. With granaries, we’ll grow fast, and our production too. Moreover, we will trigger our GA!

excellent, we dont have to divert more resource into military as it is for this to be successful

But to be on the safe side, I propose 4 each, (if there is 3 garrison and one unit to make room for casualty) this doesnt necesarily have to make total of 16 mobile units, I'll take a look into map and decide how many units can be consider what I call "swing units" swing units are basically placed in position so that it can attack 2 targets. So if city A was captured with only 3 mobile unit, the swing unit can forget about going to city A and be used for in case emergency agst City B. but if city A encountered difficulty and lost a unit, swing unit can fill in for the unexpected casualty. This will require a bit of surveying map and assessing terrain around america.

wat are we gonna do with foot soldiers? sworsmen will quickly become obsolete. as we encounter longbows and calvary. They are not upgradable so we'll have to use them up in campaign or disband them.

	26-09-2002 12:40									#15
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Seems good, Calc II. I'll try to have a detailed map of America tomorrow, and I'll post a thumbnail and a link here.

	26-09-2002 13:32									#16
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I think Shiber is right, luxuries have the highest priority, so we should go for Chicago first. ManicStarSeed has also a point with fighting a decisive war with overwhelming forces, but where will we take them from? So I again agree with Shiber, altho I'd take a few more Knights, say 4 each stack, 2 War Chariots and 2 Pikemen as garrison and shelter for injured units. 2 of these stacks, with 2-3 more Knights waiting in reserve, should suffice to finish America in 4-5 turns.

Shiber, did you by chance forget the "War Academy:" in the thread title, or do you by purpose ignore our glorious institute?

	26-09-2002 15:28									#17
	Enough of War! Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Stop the aggression and live peacefully!



Build improvements and improve our infrastructure.
Let our culture explode the minds of other civs.

	26-09-2002 17:51									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Why can the one not go along with the other?

	26-09-2002 19:06									#19
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Calc II: I have reviewed the same idea earlier (Re: "swing units". Good name btw) and I'm afraid to say that this idea, though a great one, is undoable until we get cavalry with 3 movement points.

Sir Ralph: yes, you're on to me. I'm planning to start a rival institution.
Just kidding, I simply forgot. As a member of the War Academy I know that this counts as an inexusable crime punished by death, so I ask you to spare me at least until we get America.
By the way, Sir Ralph, what is your opinion regarding the subject of checking one turn before the American campaign is launched which civs will pay us for an alliance against the Aztecs and then sign alliances with them? It will bring us money as well as improve our foreign relations.

My thoughts: I don't like the idea of a war with America that lasts more than one turn. The time after America should be devoted to construction, not to rushing units to the fronts in case America brings in some allies.
Therefore, I suggest that we put 4 units in each stack: two WCs and two knights. America has 4 cities, so the total cost of this would be 8 knights and 8 WCs, or a total of 720 shields. If instead of building the 8 knights we build 8 additional WCs and then upgrade those to knights the cost will be reduced to 320 shields and 800 gold, or 400 gold if we get Leonardo's Workshop by then.
Of course any knight or WC that we'll have left after Persia will reduce the cost of the war.

	26-09-2002 19:08									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph I think Shiber is right, luxuries have the highest priority, so we should go for Chicago first. ManicStarSeed has also a point with fighting a decisive war with overwhelming forces, but where will we take them from? So I again agree with Shiber, altho I'd take a few more Knights, say 4 each stack, 2 War Chariots and 2 Pikemen as garrison and shelter for injured units. 2 of these stacks, with 2-3 more Knights waiting in reserve, should suffice to finish America in 4-5 turns. Shiber, did you by chance forget the "War Academy:" in the thread title, or do you by purpose ignore our glorious institute?

Chicago's luxuries won't be worth anything if it isn't connected to our capital. We have to take Washington and Chicago.

	26-09-2002 19:13									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Torkkeli Let our culture explode the minds of other civs.

But then we'd have to divert workers to clean up the mess.

In any case, culture will be a major player in determining the course of this war. If we can take New York culturally we can cut expenses by 25%!!

Edit: Sir Ralph, you mentioned once that you have the formula for determining the chance of cultural flipping. Could you please disclose it?

	26-09-2002 19:33									#22
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On the SwordMen during the American campaign:

Don't disband the surviving ones even afterwords, they can be stationed on any city to help reduce risk of a flip, and more over will help to keep the peace against civs that may be hostile.

And Swordmen kill Longbowmen just fine as long as the Swordmen is attacking.

	26-09-2002 19:37									#23
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by =OttomusCeasar= Chicago's luxuries won't be worth anything if it isn't connected to our capital. We have to take Washington and Chicago.

There are other ways to connect Chicago. We can build a road there, but that road will most likely be swallowed by Greek cultural expansion, it seems, and we'd lose our supply of incense if Greece declares war on us (which is why we should try to appease them by striking an incense deal with them).
Of course it would be best if we can take Washington as well. I see your point here and I think you're right - we should make Washington as much of a priority as Chicago.

	26-09-2002 19:41									#24
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On the getting allies and getting paid to do so: For a quick war, we'll want the payments to be one time; the Gold Per Turn protion may be auto canceled if the civ it's against is wiped out early.

	26-09-2002 19:42									#25
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I second with joncnunn. We should not disband the swords we'll have left after the Persian campaign (if any), we should rather use them for odd jobs like serving as military police (in Uber Island perhaps) or killing longbowmen.

	26-09-2002 20:04									#26
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quote: Chicago's luxuries won't be worth anything if it isn't connected to our capital. We have to take Washington and Chicago.

I said go first for Chicago. And we can connect the city ourselves with ease, we are industrious.

About alliances: If we do so, we have to bring in an overwhelming force to keep the war short, and we should ally with civs far away, or we risk, that our allies take a part of America. But somehow I have a gut feeling, that nobody will pay a penny for that alliance.

Before we attack, we should trade with America and sell them something (tech, map or combo) to make sure they have 0 gold, so they can't ally up with anyone.

	26-09-2002 20:32									#27
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Washington cuts off their Iron and their luxuries in one swoop leaving them to rush spearmen only, no pikes or knights. Then we take Chicago (luxuries), then Boston and New York.

	26-09-2002 21:45									#28
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Ottomus, afaik our maps of America are up-to-date so we know they don't have a single road.
Haha! No roads!! Those losers...
In any case, we know that America doesn't have iron because IIRC, in the diplomacy screen there's an option to sell them iron (though it's grayed out because we don't have a trade route with America). I'm afraid I can't load the game right now and make sure; can anyone check this please?

Conclusions:
* America has no luxuries connected, meaning that their cities cannot reach maximum work capacity (some citizens have to be used as entertainers or other specialists).
* America has no iron, meaning that its strongest defensive unit is the spearman and its strongest offensive unit is the archer, or the longbowman if they have engineering. In any case, they aren't any threat to us, though we should be prepared in case the dice of chance give us bad rolls again.

	26-09-2002 23:19									#29
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There's an America Map in my site, http://www.arociv.com/Maps.html .
You can see two aztecs regular spearmen near Washington.
A thumbnail:

Attachment: america380adthumb.jpg
This has been downloaded 116 time(s).

	26-09-2002 23:40									#30
	Remove this text

Here is a plan I came up with.(from my own idea and reading the very good discussion here)
1)Chicago must be first for 2 reason
a) luxuries
b) most likely to fall to aztects.
2) Offensive must be based on speed and ideally will involve wc and knights to get a ga.
With defense of 3, 1knights can hold a city.
Pike can come up later
3) Lets use some of our workers to road up there right now, I know they are busy but this is important here are the roads i plan
a) Delmonte road goes n,ne
Fom there we can attack both boston/new york
b) From chiquita n,nw,nw and also (from 1N) ne,ne

Now for the attack, all knights and sword from persian war(I estimate 7+) + 5wc(they are cheap) are involved
5knights go to point s,se of chicago

Rest of forces go to point s of boston(est 2knight,5wc)
some of this force could go to mountain 2se of new york.(maybe somesword here, depending on movement but we won't wait).

We then attack chicago,boston,NY in one turn, forces then conerge on washington to finish the war.
The first forces to get to washington will be on turn 2, this assumeswith take chicago, with no more than 4 attacks. Main forces can be able to finish it by turn 3.
By the way I estimate it will take the knights near chicago 7 turns to get into postion from antioch(the last battle in the persian war). So this will give us 7turns of peace to help war weariness too.
Aggie