27-09-2002 18:19									#1
	$Mini-Game Discussion for Trading Session Nine Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Was the system for trading session 8 okay? Do we have anything that needs to changes?

The following Players would be eligible for Government Loans and New Tile Purchases next session:
Captain (Cash $134, Debt $0)
civman2000 (Cash $225, Debt $0)
Duddha (Cash $394, Debt $0)
Frances (Cash $405 in Royal Treasury)
GhengisFarb (Cash=$1854, Debt=$0)
jdd2007 (Cash $468, Debt $0)
Jonny (Cash $333, Debt $0)
Kramerman (Cash $545 in Royal Treasury)
Nimitz (Cash $278, Debt $0)
notyoueither (Cash $27, Debt $0)
rendelnep (Cash $175, Debt $0)
Shiek (Cash $153 in Royal Treasury)
skywalker (Cash $405 in Royal Treasury)


(A) Gotham wnw (jungle w/ river(1 food, 1 commerce)), $500

(B) Gotham W (jungle w/ river(1 food, 1 commerce)), $500

(C) Gotham sw2 (jungle w/ river(1 food, 1 commerce)), $500

(D) Gotham NW (jungle w/ river(1 food, 1 commerce)), $500

(E) Gotham SW (jungle w/ river(1 food, 1 commerce)), $500

(F) Gotham ssw (jungle w/ river(1 food, 1 commerce)), $500

(G) Gotham N (jungle w/ river(1 food, 1 commerce)), $500

(H) Gotham S (jungle w/ river(1 food, 1 commerce)), $500

(I) Gotham nne (jungle w/ river(1 food, 1 commerce)), $500

(J) Gotham NE (jungle (1 food)), $200

(K) Gotham SE (jungle w/ river(1 food, 1 commerce)), $500


DIRECTONAL LEGEND FOR TILE LOCATIONS
For Example, if the city was Timeline, the Green tile would be "Timeline wnw", and the blue tile would be "Timeline S".

	27-09-2002 19:16									#2
	Remove this text

Only wish I would have known that these would be opening up. Would have prefered my tiles to be connected for role playing purposes, but it's not all THAT important.

Hey, just thought I would throw this out. I have been in discussion with CFC and their RPG. I am wondering if anyone HERE would object to allowing an exchange of cash between the two games? The first proposal is that it would take 2 Lytons to make 1 Royal if you were taking from here to there, and it would take 2 Royals to make 1 Lyton if someone was bringing cash over here. We could add a Foreign exchange building to allow someone to recieve a % of the cash 'lost' in the transaction, perhaps?

It may increase membership...

	27-09-2002 19:23									#3
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I've looked at their system and I think it would be great if we could work out something to allow players to cross over between the two, especially later when PTW comes out and we could be playing the same game.

Only thing is our system is pretty easy to grasp once you look at it and theirs is well, confusing.

It looks like they just make up money, and stuff. Our system progresses with the game and we don't have stuff until the technology allows it. Their in 3600 BC or so and have stock exchanges, banks and computer companies.

Could someone post a synopsis of their system and maybe Ghengis could post a synopsis of ours and then we could see about designing a way for them to work together.

	27-09-2002 21:34									#4
	Increase the size of your Attachments

he.

Haven't seen a computer company, I just started watching though. They base everything on cash, but are starting to sell land now. Don't know if they plan to use that for something or not...

	27-09-2002 21:44									#5
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I was working on an idea for cash crops that you could grow on your land instead of food for Uber Isle and Persia but am wondering if it might be appropriate for other areas as well, since our food production is going to be the real drawback market.

Tobacco and Sugar for Uber Isle were my ideas. You would announce that you would be growing these instead of food and their production would be the same as that of food, ie a tile that produced 2 food would produce 2 tobacco.

A tobacco company that would convert 1 tobacco into 2 cigars for each labor used. Cigars would sell on the commerce market.

A distillery that would convert 2 sugar into 2 rum for each labor used (like a Brewery) Rum would sell on the Alcohol Market, I'm leaning toward making the Alcohol Market a separate Market from Food and Commerce.

Make it set at Pop x 1 for cities 5 and under, Pop x 2 for cities 19 and under, and Pop x 3 for cities 20 and over. The larger/more densely packed the city, the greater the demand fof alcohol.

So a size 5 city would have a demand of 5. A size 6 city would have a demand of 12, and a size 20 city would have a demand of 30.

Also, I think Breweries/Distilleries should only be able to sell alcohol in cities that they are in the radius of. Originally, ALL beer, etc had to be made local as it didn't last long. Wine could be sold pretty much anywhere but beer didn't become regional until railroads and refrigeration.

Anyway this would give us a market to take the heat off of food until the cities' population grows.

	27-09-2002 21:59									#6
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

You could even out the D/S on the Alcohol by using a %. 20 size city supply of 30 is 150%.

Using only Whole #'s, no rounding, a Size one city has one demand, size 2=3, 3=4, 4=6, 5=7, 6=9, 7=10, 8=12, 9=13 and so on...

Last edited by UnOrthOdOx on 27-09-2002 at 22:04

	27-09-2002 22:10									#7
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx You could even out the D/S on the Alcohol by using a %. 20 size city supply of 30 is 150%. Using only Whole #'s, no rounding, a Size one city has one demand, size 2=3, 4=6, 5=7, 6=9, 7=10, 8=12, 9=13 and so on...

Well I set to the town/city/metropolis settings to represent greater demand in larger cities, I'm trying to avoid percentages as their harder for players to double check me on and I want the number sources to be fairly obvoius.

So what are peoples opinions on a fourth market for Alcohol.

I was thinking about making other markets for finished goods so that finished goods are more profitable that raw resources. Maybe a weapons market for swords and armor that are converted from Iron and gunpowder/dynamite converted form saltpeter.

We could have Taverns affect food/alcohol, a Restaurant that just affected food and a Bar that just affected alcohol.


Random thought on compensation
Maybe we could charge a transaction fee of $1 for each raw resource and $5 for each finished good sold on the market. This would then be used to pay salaries for $Minigame personnel and taxes could later be used for government officials.

	27-09-2002 22:29									#8
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I saw the town/city/metro thing. I just thought that 1.5 was easy enough to understand, and distributed it more evenly.

I like new markets. Is there enough of a Commerce market to handle all these other items as well, though? We are converting food and Shields into Commerce, basically. Will it collapse? Will we need a commodities market?

	27-09-2002 22:49									#9
	Got spare money?

The alcohol market is separate from the commerce market, has no effect on the commerce market whatsoever.

I had several other ideas and stuff but as this is the THIRD attempt to post as the Apoly server has too many people logged on I'm not going to try again.

	27-09-2002 22:58									#10
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I know the alcohol is, I am talking of the cigars, paper, stuff like that.

	27-09-2002 23:22									#11
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Latest idea for buildings (Printing Press is right around the corner) PAPER MILL {city or estate} (Costs 5 shields/labor) Requires tile to have river access. Allows up to 4 labor to convert 1 shield into 2 paper per labor. Paper sells on the commerce market. BINDERY {city or estate} (Costs 3 shields/labor) Representing scribes before the printing press Allows up to 4 labor to convert 1 paper into 1 book (or 2 pamphlets) per labor. Books and Pamphlets sell in the commerce market with the Literature subDemand. Books sell at 150% D/S and Pamphlets sell at 75% of D/S. Printer {city or estate} (Costs 5 shields/labor) A Binder can be upgraded after the discovery of the Printing Press for 2 shields/labor. A Printer basically doubles what a labor can do versus a Bindery. Allows up to 4 labor to convert 2 paper into 2 books (or 4 pamphlets) per labor. Books and Pamphlets sell in the commerce with the Literature subDemand. Literature subDemand is equal to the market's pop x the literacy rate with an additional +1 added for each library and university in the market. As long as the subDemand is not met, all "literature" products sell at a 50% bonus.

I'd be all about a Banana Press making Banana parchement but Jungle tiles jsut don't produce much.

Unless we said that food from Jungle tiles were bananas and a Banana Mill worked like a Paper Mill only using Bananas in replace of Shields.

I would like to get the Iron, Coal, and Saltpeter things Worked out this month before they release PTW (trying to schedule some downtime)

	28-09-2002 00:01									#12
	Tired of ads?

Oh, I was just kidding you guys on that.

Go ahead with the paper press as is and I can really make the Jungle Gazette offices.

	28-09-2002 00:05									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb I think session 6 is going well, so I'd like to stick with that basic system and have new ideas expand on that. I would like to limit my subDemand/subProduct idea to resource and finished goods only, keeping common food, shields, and commerce common. Here's what I've got worked up so far: Horses = commerce generated from Horse tiles 30% bonus Iron = shields generated from Iron tiles 30% bonus Saltpeter = commerce generated from Saltpeter tiles 30% bonus Coal = shields generated from Coal tiles 20% bonus Fuel Coal = commerce generated from Coal tiles 10% bonus Crude Oil = shields generated from Oil tiles 10% bonus Petroleum = commerce generated from Oil tiles 20% bonus Rubber = commerce generated from Rubber tiles 30% bonus Aluminum = shields generated from Aluminum tiles 30% bonus Weapon Grade Uranium = shields from Uranium tiles 50% bonus Fuel Cell Uranium = commerce from Uranium tiles 10% bonus Grapes = food from Wine tiles 15% bonus Wine = commerce from Wine tiles 15% bonus (alcohol) Dye = commerce from Dye tiles 30% bonus Incense = commerce from Incense tiles 30% bonus Spice = commerce from Spice tiles 30% bonus Ivory = commerce from Ivory tiles 30% bonus (luxury) Beef = food from Cattle tiles 20% bonus Leather = shields from Cattle tiles 10% bonus Grain = food from Wheat tiles 20% bonus Gold = commerce from Gold tiles 50% bonus(luxury) Venison = Food from Game tiles 30% bonus The list seems daunting, but I thought it best to do the list now as opposed to later when the resources might have popped up on someone's tile and then conflict of interest might occur. The bonuses are pretty standard across the board with a few tweaks for resource rarity (Uranium), usefulness (Coal), and potential production increase (Wheat). Current proposed subDemands: Alcohol includes Wine and Beer(Produced by Brewery from Grain) {Food OR Commerce Market} 50% bonus if amount sold is less than 40% of Market Pop 100% bonus if amount sold is less than 30% of Market Pop 150% bonus if amount sold is less than 20% of Market Pop 200% bonus if amount sold is less than 10% of Market Pop Luxuries includes Ivory and Gold {Commerce Market} 100% bonus if amount sold is less than 40% of Market Pop 150% bonus if amount sold is less than 30% of Market Pop 200% bonus if amount sold is less than 20% of Market Pop 300% bonus if amount sold is less than 10% of Market Pop Propose a Jeweler Building that breaks down Gold and Ivory into smaller commerce (representing Jewelry). Eventually see a Steel Foundry converting 1 coal and 1 iron into 1 steel by using labor. Steel could then be used for Automobiles and Commercial Jets, etc. And have thought about a racetrack where players who have bought a horse can race them for prize money.

Are we using these rules?

If so, I have a suggestion.

Taverns cost the same as currently but their bonus applies to food and alcohol. 50% bonus and you must sell at least 1 of each.

Steakhouse same as Tavern but get 100% bonus on beef and NO bonus on food or alcohol. Must sell at least 1 alcohol and 1 beef.

Bar works same as above but you may only sell alcohol through it and alcohol gets a 75% bonus.

Restaurant same as Tavern but 50% bonus only applies to food, no bonus for alcohol or beef. You can only sell food in a restaurant.

Suggestion Two: all of the above top off at 6, they can sell one item at a bonus per population point of city up to 6 max.

You have to expand to a innercity Chain for an additional 2 shields which gives you no max limit for that city.

quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb Inn (5 shields/labor) Requires Tavern Increase Tavern bonus on food per city pop to 100%.

Simply doubles bonus of bar/tavern/restaurant/steakhouse and has same max at size 6, takes 3 shields to make into an innercity chain. Also requires 1 labor to operate Inn to represent the hotel staff.

This allows for some differention of taverns, allowing different players to focus on specific markets and the Inn thing represents the grouping and market bonus of restaurants and hotels.

I think this would add some flavor but would this be too much work for Ghengis?

	28-09-2002 03:04									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

That wouldnt be a problem, but I would think all those who have built Taverns should have the opportunity to declare which of those versions they originally built.

	28-09-2002 03:19									#15
	Put an end to popups!

Coffee
Chocolate
Corn and other grains (you kinda have this)
Fruit (generic, not bananas of course)
Cotton/cloth/textiles/sails/clothing
Candles/wax/smelly perfume (whale oil and spices?)
Ceramics (amphoras were essential to early medeteranian trade, and are used today to date many shipwrecks)
Wool (goats, sheep & alpacas) and its products
Stone (marble, granit, limestone, etc)
Art (just assign a $ value, and apply a random multiplier from -1 (garbage, lost money) to +1 (wow, cool, I like it) each trading round).

These are many of the things traded between peoples with technology similar to where we are now. Just thought I would throw them out for you to look at and discuss.

Later.

GK

	28-09-2002 04:39									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I think the system is fine. We should leave it the way it is now.

However, that paper mill/bindery/printing press ideas sound really good. If we add 1 thing, that should be it.

	28-09-2002 04:45									#17
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Jonny I think the system is fine. We should leave it the way it is now. However, that paper mill/bindery/printing press ideas sound really good. If we add 1 thing, that should be it.

Can we at least add the alcohol market to suck some volume away from the food market?

Does anyone have comments/suggestions for this proposal:
PAPER MILL {city or estate} (Costs 5 shields/labor)
Requires tile to have river access.

Allows up to 4 labor to convert 1 shield into 2 paper per labor. Paper sells on the commerce market.


BINDERY {city or estate} (Costs 3 shields/labor)
Representing scribes before the printing press

Allows up to 4 labor to convert 1 paper into 1 book (or 2 pamphlets) per labor. Books and Pamphlets sell in the commerce market with the Literature subDemand. Books sell at 150% D/S and Pamphlets sell at 75% of D/S.


Printer {city or estate} (Costs 5 shields/labor)
A Binder can be upgraded after the discovery of the Printing Press for 2 shields/labor.

A Printer basically doubles what a labor can do versus a Bindery.

Allows up to 4 labor to convert 2 paper into 2 books (or 4 pamphlets) per labor. Books and Pamphlets sell in the commerce with the Literature subDemand.


Literature subDemand is equal to the market's pop x the literacy rate with an additional +1 added for each library and university in the market. As long as the subDemand is not met, all "literature" products sell at a 50% bonus.





ALCOHOL MARKET
Wine, Rum, Beer, and Ale.

Set at Pop x 1 for cities 5 and under, Pop x 2 for cities 19 and under, and Pop x 3 for cities 20 and over. The larger/more densely packed the city, the greater the demand fof alcohol.

So a size 5 city would have a demand of 5. A size 6 city would have a demand of 12, and a size 20 city would have a demand of 30.

BREWERY {city or estate} (Costs 5 shields/labor)
Allows up to 4 labor to convert to 2 food into 2 Ale{Changed name from mead to ale}(alcohol) per labor (1 to 1 conversion).
Allows up to 4 labor to convert up 2 Grain(only source is Wheat) into 2 Beer (1 to 1 conversion). Beer sells at 30% bonus.

Source for labor on estates can be vassals or city labor from any city with the brewery in its radius. For breweries in cities the labor must come from the city labor pool and/or vassals of landowners who own land within the city's radius.



DISTILLERY{city or estate} (Costs 5 shields/labor)
Allows up to 4 labor to convert 2 Sugar into 2 Rum
Rum sells at 50% bonus.
The sugar must be in the Distillery's possesion at the beginning of the trading session.

Source for labor on estates can be vassals or city labor from any city with the brewery in its radius. For breweries in cities the labor must come from the city labor pool and/or vassals of landowners who own land within the city's radius.

NOTE: Sugar can only be grown in select markets, on grassland and in replacement of food. You must state during the trading session that you are growing sugar instead of food and the sugar can be sold at the end of the session on the commerce market or stored.

So basically Rum is the most profitable but requires the most coordination to produce.

	28-09-2002 18:15									#18
	Got spare money?

I f we don't get more feedback I'll have to start trading session 9 without changes............

	28-09-2002 19:54									#19
	Suffering from ads?

Well, the alcohol market looks like a good idea too.

I say add the paper/publishing market and the alcohol market, and let's start session 9!