28-09-2002 06:28									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin You are in an evocatively exuberant mood today Frogger.

I feel like poking fun at silliness today.

	28-09-2002 06:28									#32
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Well the article makes a genuine point whether it was one of the 1000 worst atrocities or just the 1148th.

	28-09-2002 06:29									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin You are in an evocatively exuberant mood today Frogger.

He is obviously on some type of drugs. It is probably best to humor him until he comes down...

	28-09-2002 06:31									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Mr. President Shut up, Frogger.

Screw you.

Some people (or, more properly, viewpoints) have been having free run for the last year. I put up with it for a while, but it's progressed to the point where it's having concrete negative efects both on the quality of political discourse and in the real world. Why bother with reason when you can whip up a few base sentiments like horror and vengefulness?

I feel bad doing this to Lincoln, since he's a very reasonable person usually, but the article is over the top.

	28-09-2002 06:33									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln While we are reviewing history, why doesn't someone post some of the responses of nations that suffered an attack like the US experienced on 9/11? America can be trusted as a superpower. Not only did she selectively target the military but now she is helping to rebuild the country that supported the attacks. Like the article says. Some people just have an irrational hatred for the United States that seems to guide their thoughts.

Snooze. The US did as well as could be expected in Afghanistan. The same won't be said about the current BS regarding Iraq...

	28-09-2002 06:34									#36
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We haven't done anything to Iraq yet. In fact the UN draft is being prepared now to offer inspections one more time.

	28-09-2002 06:54									#37
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Well I am off to bed. Hope you "shameful" liberals can repent while I am gone.

	28-09-2002 07:59									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger I feel like poking fun at silliness today.

Then find something silly to poke fun at. 9/11 and an authors feelings about anti-Americanism don't seem silly to me.

You are demonstrating you are vary apt at setting up straw men from 2 or 3 lines of an article and ignoring all the rest.

	28-09-2002 08:13									#39
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Really?

I don't find 3000 innocent people dying funny in the slightest. I find some people's reactions funny, and will make fun of them if the mood strikes me.

The article was a sad little piece of silliness. In the space of a page of standard text the author managed to reduce himself in my mind to the status of a tabloid columnist. Whether it be in the form of shallow, specious claims that muslim extremism and european antagonism both spring from similar sources (they hate our freedom and wealth!), by making ridiculously ahistorical claims as to the scale of 9/11, by engaging in the worst form of disregard to human life with respect to innocent Afghan civilians or by dismissing all who disagree with him as "self-loathing liberals", the author seems to be unable to string two sentences together without making an ass of himself.

I have respect for those who may share the author's point of view...but they had better come up with something better than that piece of tripe disguising as serious journalism in order to justify their existence.

	28-09-2002 08:26									#40
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Was it not the worst example of a certain type of act?

Is not that type of act extremely destabilising to world peace?

How many people fail to appreciate the significance of attacks on concentrations of civilians made by irregular forces who disguise themselves as just another few Joes on the street (or in the airplane as the case may be)? This time it was 3000 people in 3 locations. How significant will it be when it is St Petersburg going up in a mushroom cloud? Or London, or San Francisco, or Bombay, or Montreal?

You are correct Frogger, there are many higher body counts. 9/11 is significant for reasons other than quantity of dead, although it is not insignifcant on that score either.

	28-09-2002 08:34									#41
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It was significant on the level of geopolitics because Americans died, not some folks nobody knows. On the level of atrocities, what I count is body count, the nature of the victims (military, political enemies, or just mom and pop) and any additional suffering inflicted (torture, rape etc.)

9/11 makes it as the most significant geopolitical event since 1991. It doesn't even make it as the worst atrocity in the last 10 years (by a long shot) , so to claim that it's one of the worst in 10 000 years of human history is silly silly silly.

	28-09-2002 08:50									#42
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Actually, I think it would have been even more significant had the targets been in Moscow and St Petersburg, or Paris.

At any rate, it may be much more significant given time. It may mark the point that the world said 'enough'. The world may no longer tolerate the existence of vermin who skulk around in civies blowing up random civilians, or the countries who make hay by supporting and sheltering the scum.

Or maybe not, maybe the world doesn't care enough yet. Maybe the lunatics of the world will just keep on planning bigger and better events. Maybe someday the point will come that is enough. Maybe not.

Maybe people will let their bias against America effect their view of the event to such an extent that it will turn out to be just another 3000 dead people. Somehow I doubt the Americans will let that happen too easily. Can't say I blame them.

	28-09-2002 09:19									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln America can be trusted as a superpower. Not only did she selectively target the military but now she is helping to rebuild the country that supported the attacks. Like the article says. Some people just have an irrational hatred for the United States that seems to guide their thoughts.

This is wrong on two points. First of all, as is obvious to everyone, the US is now using 9/11 as an excuse to attack a country that had absolutely nothing to do with it, Iraq.

Second, the US has not only not helped in the rebuilding of Afganisatn, it hasn't even come up with the money it pledged last year (some of it has gone over). Afganistan is falling apart, the "government" only control Kabul while the warlords are begining to fight in the countryside, and the Taliban are already moving back into the country.

	28-09-2002 09:33									#44
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara This is wrong on two points. First of all, as is obvious to everyone, the US is now using 9/11 as an excuse to attack a country that had absolutely nothing to do with it, Iraq.

Or maybe your leaders just feel the need for a very large, unsinkable air craft carrier in the region...

	28-09-2002 09:34									#45
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You know, by the logic of this article, if 9/11 was one of the greatest atrocities in history, then Columbine was too.

In fact, Columbine ranks right up there with the Holocaust and the Crusades. Really.

Thus, since the FBI didn't go into the two killers' homes and blow them up, it shows that America has great magnanimity.

And also, if the FBI, in one of their routine searches, shot some family member of the two killers, it's just normal. Maybe these meddling family members should have stayed away. Only the FBI knows how to win this war against schoolyard violence.

Of course, if FOX spends the next 10 years reporting on how victims of Columbine are rebuilding their lives (and nothing but that), there's nothing wrong with that, of course.

	28-09-2002 09:37									#46
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Get my PM at CG, NYE?

	28-09-2002 09:37									#47
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Exhibit A.

/Edit. Unfortunate x-post.

	28-09-2002 09:40									#48
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The world won't give a damn until a nuclear weapon is set off by terrorists. And if it goes off in an American city, certain folks will rationalize it away: "They deserved it for their foreign policies!" or, "Ha! It's about time someone paid them back for Hiroshima and Nagasaki!"

Perhaps someone on this board will have a father, mother, sister, brother or some other acquaintance killed by a terrorist. Perhaps then it won't be so easy to rationalize the terrorists' as being some poor, misguided fools who merely need a liberal education to truly love the world.

Nobody is born evil. But it is eminently possible to become evil via the decisions one makes in life. History is replete with examples.

Gatekeeper

	28-09-2002 09:42									#49
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Exhibit A. /Edit. Unfortunate x-post.

You sure?

	28-09-2002 09:45									#50
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quote: Perhaps then it won't be so easy to rationalize the terrorists' as being some poor, misguided fools who merely need a liberal education to truly love the world

Nobody has yet suggested (on this thread) that terrorists are anything better than murderers. I know that I certainly haven't (and wouldn't).

	28-09-2002 09:56									#51
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Frogger:

Not in this thread yet, as you indicate. The post was an observation on my part of not only Apolyton, but other parts of the Internet and IRL that I've experienced. Rest assured, people have made those rationalizations. Just not in this thread. Yet.

Gatekeeper

	28-09-2002 09:58									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Gatekeeper The world won't give a damn until a nuclear weapon is set off by terrorists. And if it goes off in an American city, certain folks will rationalize it away: "They deserved it for their foreign policies!" or, "Ha! It's about time someone paid them back for Hiroshima and Nagasaki!" Perhaps someone on this board will have a father, mother, sister, brother or some other acquaintance killed by a terrorist. Perhaps then it won't be so easy to rationalize the terrorists' as being some poor, misguided fools who merely need a liberal education to truly love the world. Nobody is born evil. But it is eminently possible to become evil via the decisions one makes in life. History is replete with examples. Gatekeeper

I assure you, the world is giving a damn. But they aren't giving it in a let's-shoot'em-all, let-god-sort'em-out way.

Admittedly, liberal idealism is sometimes too - idealistic. But American cowboyism suffers from the same fault - an equally misguided idealistic belief that gunning everyone down will somehow solve all problems. War can be part of a solution, but it isn't THE solution.

Y'know, if leftists and rightists could somehow sit down and come up with a plan that combines both liberal niceness and rightist firmness, American foreign policies would make a lot more sense. But I guess I'm hoping for too much.

	28-09-2002 10:06									#53
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rans. the Yanks aren't shooting 'em all. They have been very focused so far. That is where the bias becomes evident. The distortions of what has happened.

	28-09-2002 10:11									#54
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quote: Originally posted by ranskaldan Y'know, if leftists and rightists could somehow sit down and come up with a plan that combines both liberal niceness and rightist firmness, American foreign policies would make a lot more sense. But I guess I'm hoping for too much.

Heh. You're preaching to the choir on this point, pastor!

Gatekeeper

	28-09-2002 10:12									#55
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But that's it...it's not a case of "either you agree with the author or you're some pansyass who doesn't think that military force was an acceptable response to the terrorist attacks".

Are there America-bshers out there who get a hard-on every time they see footage from the WTC? Of course. Just like there are America lovers who can never see anything wrong with the US. I don't really think that one group is any more prevalent than the other. The author himself seems to belong to the latter group, what with his dismissals of civilian casualties and his disrepect for the Geneva convention. What I'm saying is that it's best to keep the argument between reasonable people who are willing to look at things from another perspective...

I've held my tongue for a long while on this. There are some people here who have felt free to spew the most outrageous nonsense for the past year (again, I'm not pointing to the thread-starter...just the article he posted). At first I put it down to shock, and then I dismissed it as unimportant hyperbole. But now it seems to be an permanent feature of discussion.

September the 11th 2001 was a black day for any civilised person. But not, unfortunately, the darkest day even in my memory. And not an excuse to behave like a spoiled child every time somebody disagrees with the US.

In other words, those with drums to beat have milked September 11th for as much as it's worth, as far as I'm concerned, and have done the victims enough disservice with their polemics against all those not quite as hawkish and chauvinist as themselves.

	28-09-2002 10:26									#56
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However, the author is not reacting against reasoned debate about the proper course of action to be taken.

He is writing about opinions formed by anti-American feelings. He is railing against the possibility that 9/11 will become a footnote in victims of terrorism studies.

So am I.

There was a certain amount of 'nuke 'em' rhetoric. That was going too far, yes. But there has also been a lot of 'they got what they deserved' crap floating around as well.

This guy chose to comment of the later. The former was buried for the most part within a few weeks of the event.

	28-09-2002 10:37									#57
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Bravo, Frogger. My sentiments exactly.

They always say "never forget". HOW THE HELL CAN I? They remind me every five minutes...

	28-09-2002 10:45									#58
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This Anti-US feeling did not stem from people hating the US for being the richest/etc. nation on this planet. Rather, it is the unadulterated self-serving meddling under a thin veneer of feeble excuses that is the US foreign policy since after WWII.

The US has thus far caused an unfathomed amount of pain and sufferings among civilians of a large number of foreign countries. Right at this moment, in Afghanistan. Is the country faring better now? The euphoria was unfortunately shortlived, with the lives of your averge Afghani no better than before. There have been a lot of Afghanis killed, with al-Qaeda still largely unaffected, and OBL and Omar at large.

With all this still fresh, now Duyba is proposing that the same thing be done to Iraq. He must think the rest of the world is as stupid as he.

	28-09-2002 10:46									#59
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You want to forget? Perhaps I am mistaken in my estimation of the importance of the event.

	28-09-2002 10:52									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger This Anti-US feeling did not stem from people hating the US for being the richest/etc. nation on this planet. Rather, it is the unadulterated self-serving meddling under a thin veneer of feeble excuses that is the US foreign policy since after WWII. The US has thus far caused an unfathomed amount of pain and sufferings among civilians of a large number of foreign countries. Right at this moment, in Afghanistan. Is the country faring better now? The euphoria was unfortunately shortlived, with the lives of your averge Afghani no better than before. There have been a lot of Afghanis killed, with al-Qaeda still largely unaffected, and OBL and Omar at large. With all this still fresh, now Duyba is proposing that the same thing be done to Iraq. He must think the rest of the world is as stupid as he.

Bullsh**.

A lot of people hate the US for whatever reason they can find.

That self-serving meddling from '45 to '90 kept most of us speaking freely. I would point out that a good many other governments engaged in that self-serving meddling.

OBL is dead, and the future of the Afghans is up to the Afghans.

No, Dubya is engaged in an international struggle for what the world will be like tomorrow and 10 years from now. You must be a stupid as he thinks you are.