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Reddawg
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Oak Ridge, El Niño, Apolyton
Aug 2001
time: 00:22
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It occurs to me that a sizable, most likely a majority, share of the people and official here have come out in an entirely aggressive stance on annexing America, and seemingly ASAP. Far be it from me to deny the common interest of our nation. However, I (and I think I am not alone on this, but I am hereby sounding out everyone's feelings) do not wish our nation to continue this nearly unbroken chain of warfare and militaristic expansion that started with the French war. Some people even speak of soon attacking France after America.
What I wish to have is concessions, and I mean political ones. There is no pressing need for the American territories; there is no particular value (you may argue, the incense, but we already have an incense surplus) to their land: it is not any more valuable than land elsewhere. Our nation is far past needing a time of consolidation; a Pax Apolytonia if you will. We are now a major power, but this is provided only by the largeness of our territory and our military. Economically, scientifically, structurally, we are straggling. Any concerted offensive effort by other large powers would meet an Apolyton who has strong offense but within it's territories is laughably underdeveloped.
So, the concessions I desire (both officially as Minister of the Economy and unofficially as a citizen and Statistician) is that the American Annexation will put a moratorium on any war for the next 5 turn chats within these conditions:
1. Any invasion (e.g. another nation instigating a war) should be met only with defensive and limited offensive reactions. This means should a nation declare war on us, we will not attempt any further conquests than needed to re-secure peace and continue consolidation.
2. In no case whatsoever will warmongers in Apolyton push for war with France or any other power, great or small, unless a 2/3 majority votes for the war, and all cabinet ministers concede to these actions. The reasons for going into such a war must be pressing and decidely necessary (example: we lack a certain resource in our territory, cannot trade for it, and so must go to war to claim in).
3. During these 5 turnchats of Pax Apolytonia efforts will be made to: develop the infrastrucutre of our nation, promote the scientific community, and strengthen the economy. As a concession to the warmongers, it will be guaranteed that the military will also be kept up-to-date and maintained a sufficient size (example, a guarantee to maintain the military service rate at a minimum of 7 years [this is the rate at which we found ourselves in 170 AD] and a maximum of 10 years).
All proposals herein are just that: proposals. I recognize that any such concessions will require both a vote and perhaps, upon review, an ammendment to the constitution. But I feel that it is vital and necessary that such strong efforts be taken to secure the internal growth of our nation, and in such an official and role-playing oriented manner.
signed,
Reddawg, Minister of the Economy
September 28, 2002 / September 28, 380 AD
the Royal Apolytonian Economy HQ in Apolyton, Apolytonia
Last edited by Reddawg on 29-09-2002 at 06:57
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Duddha
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Los Angeles
Nov 2001
time: 21:22
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I spit on this patch of lies! War has and will always be the future of Apolyton. You ask why we need war, here are some reasons:
1. America and France are our sworn enemys.
2. We are far from a Pax Apolytonia. We are currently slightly more powerful than our neghbors, individualy. Our superiority is still not certian, only by defeating our neighbors on the battlefield will we create a true Peace.(really! we are playing on Emporer, the computer can build and reaserch faster then we could ever hope to. Only if we corner them militarily will we win!)
3. If we capture the American incense market we will control most of the world's supply. We can then gain more wealth and build and reaserch faster!(what the builders want!)
4. We can build infrastructure while we conquer. Look at all we have already achieved. We have gained three! wonders through conquest. The builder policy is not only achievable through peace, war is actually better for builders.
If we stop our conquests after Persia we are surely doomed! Our neighbors are not peace lovers like many in our nation, made evident when Germany and Persia declared war on US! We can not allow ourselves to be put in a position where we can be bullied. War is our only future. If you listen to these lies the Great Banana will strike thee down!
Signed,
Duddha, Lord Protector of El Nino
Last edited by Duddha on 29-09-2002 at 02:02
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Reddawg
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Oak Ridge, El Niño, Apolyton
Aug 2001
time: 00:22
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First, a point-by-point rebuttal of Duddha's response:
1. Sworn-enemies America may be, and I have already conceded to a final war with them. But why France as well? If France, why not Persia, and Germany? and then the rest of the world?! It is ludicrous to maintain grudges.
2. Our superiority on the continent is only contested by Greece; we are growing at a rate much faster than any other nation (in most respects). It is through consolidation that our conquests from France, America, and Persia will secure our superiority (no matter how much an advantage the AI has, with a much larger and stronger basis from which to research, grow, etc., we will still surpass them).
3. As I say in rebuttal #3, the American annexation is a concession I've already made!
4. In no way, shape, or form are we able to build nearly as much during times of war as during peace. Entire swaths of our land is too hostile to allow the workers to build roads and irrigate; military regiments are constantly in need of replenishment and thus drain resources out of the cities that could be, and need to be, direct elsewhere.
The Protector of El Niño would do well to support my proposal, keeping in mind that his trifling province is well on it's way to be the scumbasket of our nation.
quote:
Originally posted by Duddha
I thought it was only a majority of the public had to vote in favor. I couldn't find the part relating to war in the CoL, can some one clear this up? |
That may be, I probably confused it with the U.S. Constitution
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Duddha
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Los Angeles
Nov 2001
time: 21:22
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quote:
2. Our superiority on the continent is only contested by Greece; we are growing at a rate much faster than any other nation (in most respects). It is through consolidation that our conquests from France, America, and Persia will secure our superiority (no matter how much an advantage the AI has, with a much larger and stronger basis from which to research, grow, etc., we will still surpass them). |
The reason our power is growing faster than them is because of our wars. If we conquer Greece our superiority is assured. We could do it during a GA.
quote:
ay, shape, or form are we able to build nearly as much during times of war as during peace. Entire swaths of our land is too hostile to allow the workers to build roads and irrigate; military regiments are constantly in need of replenishment and thus drain resources out of the cities that could be, and need to be, direct elsewhere. |
Slaves bring free labour to our lands. GLs bring free wonders. A war together with a good city planner means optimal growth, because a good city planner can expand our armies and meet the needs of our towns at the same time, like Godking has been doing.
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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:22
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While I support the notion of a Pax Apolytonia and oposed Duddha's thirst for blood and endless war, we must take America to make this peace a reality.
First, Ghengis makes good points about market share and future resurces. While we are almost guaranteed coal and rubber, oil wil be a problem. Then there is the fact that American lands are higly productive, and will fare beter under our administration that Abe's.
Then there are basic geostrategic, concerns. Our borders with America are wide open. An invading army has a wide open plain to strike as the border is now. We can't afford such an open border- taking the American lands gives us a smaller, easier to control border. It also allows us to project power into the north that much easier- if we ever go to war with germany, it gives us the ability to flank the mountainous border. It would also not be wise to let those lands fall under Aztec control, as it would make us and them more likely to be enemies, not friends. The Americans have spearmen, the aztecs have knights. Ho much longer can America survive?
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History Guy
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Reads too many books...
Oct 2001
time: 23:22
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My thoughts are that this war should be the last for a while, unless we are forced into another. Our victory over the French, German, and Persian civilizations was a masterpiece of warfare, and most certainly it helped to cement ourselves as a people. However, that war is one thing, and I hope we never have to fight against such heavy odds again for some time, if ever. I think what we should concentrate on in the years to come is improving our culture, and making great leaps of science, becoming more than in empire, but in truth a great civilization.
However, I think, for reasons stated above by Genghis and Ge Pap, that it would be best to move into America, and annex it's remnants, for the land and the resources. If we do not do this, the Aztecs will, and that would most certainly not be a very good thing for us. I most certainly would not be pleased to have the Aztecs as neighbors. If we wait for them to conquer Mr. Lincoln's 'empire', they will have the American incense and the lands (in which we may find saltpetre in the times to come), and we will have nothing for it but new, more aggressive and dangerous neighbors. I think we must strike now, and annex America, and then we must effect this Pax Apolytonia. This is, I think, what is best for our country, and for our civilization.
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UnOrthOdOx
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Hello....
Jun 2002
time: 22:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Reddawg
these conditions:
1. Any invasion (e.g. another nation instigating a war) should be met only with defensive and limited offensive reactions. This means should a nation declare war on us, we will not attempt any further conquests than needed to re-secure peace and continue consolidation.
2. In no case whatsoever will warmongers in Apolyton push for war with France or any other power, great or small, unless a 2/3 majority votes for the war, and all cabinet ministers concede to these actions. The reasons for going into such a war must be pressing and decidely necessary (example: we lack a certain resource in our territory, cannot trade for it, and so must go to war to claim in).
3. During these 5 turnchats of Pax Apolytonia efforts will be made to: develop the infrastrucutre of our nation, promote the scientific community, and strengthen the economy. As a concession to the warmongers, it will be guaranteed that the military will also be kept up-to-date and maintained a sufficient size (example, a guarantee to maintain the military service rate at a minimum of 7 years [this is the rate at which we found ourselves in 170 AD] and a maximum of 10 years).
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Reddawg has found some hard to read colors...
I am seriously limited on time at the moment. I will reply with more on Monday.
First, I wish to thank Reddawg for pointing out another point where the CoL lacks. Declaring war. #2 while not constitutional, as there is nothing on DECLARING war, is surely against the spirit of democracy. I assure you that if a 2/3 vote passes to declare war, and the ministers choose to ignore it, I will call for an injuncture and impeachment of all ministers denying the people their will.
I hope SirRalph gets here to speak on this in the mean time.
Why must it always be oneway or the other? Why are we always saying build OR war?
Both can be accomplished:
War on america will befought largely with survivors of Persian war. There will be few reqests for new units.
This continued war will have no adverse effects while in Monarchy.
I would support a switch to Republic after that point, in the meantime we can still work on getting markets and Libraries up.
As a 'warmonger' I play while in a Republic most of the game. Wars can be fought easily in Republic if you keep them under 20 turns.
I see this plan covers only Science. That is a fault. We must work diligently to increase our PRODUCTION. This is perhaps a worse shape than Science. We have Luxuries to trade to help with buying tech. You can't trade for a FP... Therefore we should include a plan to mine all areas of the Olde Penninsula, clear more jungle, include workers in that build list above...and so on.
Warmongering is approaching a Hiatus soon for the mere fact we can no longer build units fast enough. After the American war a buildup of the military will be needed before launching another attack or being able to pose a decent defense against a serious threat.
I think an agreement can be reached that is not all war or all builder. Why not have both? Gain more GL's, resources and enjoy the benefits of the greatest infrastructure in the game?
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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:22
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It may be wise to begin our war with America after we renegotiate all our peace treaties, which is something that is coming up soon. That way, we make it diplomatically damaging for any civs to ally with America. In fact, an allience with the aztecs against the Americans might be a great diplomatic excuse, and we make the Aztecs more friendly also. But again, this should be done soon, perhaps even before we make peace with Persia. I think people forget America's utter weakness. It would be an extremely quick campaign, if planned well
And for those who ike their eyesight:
It may be wise to begin our war with America after we renegotiate all our peace treaties, which is something that is coming up soon. That way, we make it diplomatically damaging for any civs to ally with America. In fact, an allience with the aztecs against the Americans might be a great diplomatic excuse, and we make the Aztecs more friendly also. But again, this should be done soon, perhaps even before we make peace with Persia. I think people forget America's utter weakness. It would be an extremely quick campaign, if planned well
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adaMada
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"The Iron" Stadium, Ubergorsk, Apolytonia (C3DG)
Mar 2000
time: 00:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Reddawg
It occurs to me that a sizable, most likely a majority, share of the people and official here have come out in an entirely aggressive stance on annexing America, and seemingly ASAP. Far be it from me to deny the common interest of our nation. However, I (and I think I am not alone on this, but I am hereby sounding out everyone's feelings) do not wish our nation to continue this nearly unbroken chain of warfare and militaristic expansion that started with the French war. Some people even speak of soon attacking France after America. |
I make no comment on attacking France after America -- if I can be convinced that there will be a discrete advantage to doing it, then I will support it. Otherwise, I will not for the immediate future.
quote:
What I wish to have is concessions, and I mean political ones. There is no pressing need for the American territories; there is no particular value (you may argue, the incense, but we already have an incense surplus) to their land: it is not any more valuable than land elsewhere. Our nation is far past needing a time of consolidation; a Pax Apolytonia if you will. We are now a major power, but this is provided only by the largeness of our territory and our military. Economically, scientifically, structurally, we are straggling. Any concerted offensive effort by other large powers would meet an Apolyton who has strong offense but within it's territories is laughably underdeveloped. |
The American territories are wonderfully located, have magnificant resources, and may soon be the property of the Aztecs, especially with the Greek-Aztec war recently ending. Furthermore, if I recall correctly, the Americans have terratory (and, as such, potential resources) that we lack -- it wouldn't be nice if we deided not to take them, only to have a rare resource pop up there in the future.
quote:
So, the concessions I desire (both officially as Minister of the Economy and unofficially as a citizen and Statistician) is that the American Annexation will put a moratorium on any war for the next 5 turn chats within these conditions: |
Who knows where we'll be in five turn chats? That's something in the range of twenty five turns -- not an insignificant amount of time.
quote:
1. Any invasion (e.g. another nation instigating a war) should be met only with defensive and limited offensive reactions. This means should a nation declare war on us, we will not attempt any further conquests than needed to re-secure peace and continue consolidation. |
Our war against the Germans, if nothing else, has proven one fact -- even when the AI has the advantage, it will be willing to accept peace if you start taking or razing cities. This is a consistant pattern we've seen throughout all our wars, and it would be a shame to prohibit this strategy.
Furthermore, I think that defensive wars offer one major opportunity -- to solidify boarders. It's a chance to take a pesky AI city and get rid of it. Though I would also be in full support of a culture building and flipping strategy, I would urge that we consider boarder solidifications as an important part of any defensive war.
quote:
2. In no case whatsoever will warmongers in Apolyton push for war with France or any other power, great or small, unless a 2/3 majority votes for the war, and all cabinet ministers concede to these actions. The reasons for going into such a war must be pressing and decidely necessary (example: we lack a certain resource in our territory, cannot trade for it, and so must go to war to claim in). |
I'd have to agree with UnOrthOdOx that this is unconstitutional; by both making it possible for the Cabinet Ministers to override the people's will, and removing the Foreign Ministry (where, if I recall correctly, the power lies now) from the process.
I agree, however, that we should only go to war for necessary reasons or opportunities that we won't have in the future (such as the American war).
quote:
3. During these 5 turnchats of Pax Apolytonia efforts will be made to: develop the infrastrucutre of our nation, promote the scientific community, and strengthen the economy. As a concession to the warmongers, it will be guaranteed that the military will also be kept up-to-date and maintained a sufficient size (example, a guarantee to maintain the military service rate at a minimum of 7 years [this is the rate at which we found ourselves in 170 AD] and a maximum of 10 years). |
I dislike the lack of flexability this plan offers -- tying our Miltiary to a certain strength is always unwise (remember, as our cities become more valuable, it'll become important to protect them better, which will lead to a larger military, and we will need to maintain a small offensive force to threaten cities for better peace terms and to destroy enemy invaders at the boarders).
quote:
All proposals herein are just that: proposals. I recognize that any such concessions will require both a vote and perhaps, upon review, an ammendment to the constitution. But I feel that it is vital and necessary that such strong efforts be taken to secure the internal growth of our nation, and in such an official and role-playing oriented manner. |
Let me congradulate Reddawg on an excellently worded and well thought out proposal. I agree totally with very of it  , but I think he did a very good job of making his case, and should be commended.
quote:
signed,
Reddawg, Minister of the Economy
September 28, 2002 / September 28, 380 AD
the Royal Apolytonian Economy HQ in Apolyton, Apolytonia |
--------
adaMada, Vice-Minister of Foreign Affairs
September 28, 2002; 430 AD
Secret Foreign Ministry Bunker, Persian Boarder
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Reddawg
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Oak Ridge, El Niño, Apolyton
Aug 2001
time: 00:22
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quote:
Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx
...I see this plan covers only Science. That is a fault. We must work diligently to increase our PRODUCTION...
...I think an agreement can be reached that is not all war or all builder. Why not have both? Gain more GL's, resources and enjoy the benefits of the greatest infrastructure in the game? |
Well, this proposal most definitely does not only cover science! See point three, which stresses first infrastructure, second science, and third economy.
As for "all war or all builder", that's not what I was intending to propose. I realize that a standard war does not completely halt all building. However it severely hampers it, and as we have been in an extended period of war, a period of peace (again, the Pax Apolytonia) is needed to compensate.
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Arnelos
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of the Free World
Sep 2002
time: 00:22
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Reddawg,
I must agree with most other posters that I fully agree with the sentiment and general argument of your proposal: The war with America, should it occur (which I and others believe it should), should be our LAST war for quite some time. From a strictly pragmatic standpoint, Aggie has hit on why this is the case: we simply don't have the military forces to sustain warfare beyond America.
We need to devote a rather significant period of time to building up our infrastructure and building a much larger military force in order to sustain another conflict. Duddha's wish to immediately go to war with other civs is simply dumb, even from a warrior standpoint (as Aggie correctly points out).
So from both a builder AND a warrior standpoint, it is in our *pragmatic* interests to stop all war after the hopeful annexation of America and concentrate on our infrastructure.
I would assert that one of the areas that has been largely neglected in the discussion of this is the need to expand the Ministry of Public Works. With the job of clearing the huge jungle on top of improving the areas around our cities, the Ministry of Public Works will need a MAJOR expansion. This will drain from both the production and population of our cities for a time, but the benefits are WELL worth it. I agree with Unortho that the workers should focus on increasing industrial production through building mines, then focus on irrigation to increase pop.
Beyond that, our cities should focus on temples, marketplaces and libraries as being required in EVERY city (I'd require barracks as well, but Szun Szu's covers that ), with courthouses, aqueducts, universities, cathedrals, colloseums, and banks (eventually...) where appropriate (especially in major production centers).
I agree with both Reddawg and Aggie that we need to build up an offensive military force during this period which could be put to use at the end of this period of intensive building. However, I believe we should build the infrastructure FIRST (workers, improvements) before cities switch over to building knights. For pikemen, however, those should be built early (perhaps even befor the workers for border cities), as I agree with Aggie that every border city needs 2 pike as defense and sooner rather than later.
I STRONGLY agree with Unortho (in fact, I've been arguing for this for at least a week, almost alone on the boards...) that we should switch to Republic as soon as the Persian war is successfully concluded. I, as with Unortho, have played MANY a game where I warmongered throughout the game as a republic. It is EASY to do if you keep your wars short, which is precisely what we want to do with our war against America. If part of the entire point of going to war with America is to trigger our GA, it would help IMMEASURABLY if we do so while already under republic rather than wasting part of our GA under monarchy or while switching in between (even if that's only 1 turn because we're religious).
I'll also cite Aggie's statement that the war with America can and most likely will be fought with the survivors of the Persian war. This is precisely what I've been arguing over the past week on the forums: that our cities should go ahead and switch to building workers and improvements (especially courthouses in cities with high corruption and libraries in cities with high trade) so that we can take maximum advantage of every single turn of our GA under republic once it starts.
This is not an "all builder" strategy. Rather it is a highly *pragmatic* strategy conducive to both a builder AND a warrior strategy. I think all reasonable individuals here in Apolytonia agree that pursuing war after America would be unecessarily over-extending ourselves and we need a period where we build infrastruture to boost production and science.
That said, my specific arguments are that we should switch to republic BEFORE and not after the war with America and that we need to dramatically increase the size of our worker force. I'm far mroe attached to the first than the second, but I'd like to see both accomplished .
Once this period of infrastructure improvement is done, then we can concern ourselves about if and who we should fight next. That's so far down the road that we don't really need to worry about that yet. For now, we really need to worry about infrastructure.
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Donegeal
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Apolyton's Resident Law Enforcement Officer. Founder of the Glory of War, Champions of Apolyton!
Jul 2002
time: 05:22
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Wow. Some excelent debate going on here (although pretty one sided as Duddha seems to be the only advocate for war.).
As I am always saying, I am a builder, and I suport the idea of a Pax. I also love playing devils advocate, so I'm going to argue in Duddha's cause.
As a builder, I have always been hesitant to go to war until I felt I was (overly) ready. This has been my first experince with a warring stragety and, frankly, I have been quiet astounded. This stagety has brought us from a starting position I would have said no way to, to our current position of becoming an unstoppable superpower. And this on Emporer level. Why stop a strafety that has so obviously work far better than anyone (except for Duddha) would have thought?
At the begining, we took our time and prepared ourselves for the W.O.N with America. Perhaps what we should do after we take out America is build up our forces again and venture out once more. It has worked EXTREMELY well for us before.
Basicly what I'm saying is the old addage of "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."
Holy Snot! I'm siding with the A.R.E. again?
And the sworn enemy of my grand Pina Colada?
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29-09-2002 00:13
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