30-09-2002 03:23									#31
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quote: Originally posted by GePap The theory of a planned Soviet attack aganist the Germans has been disproven by historians that have looked through the Red Army archives. As for the Soviets having the bulk of their forces close to the border: well, were else would you put them if you have Nazi germany as a neighbor? In Siberia?

Given the nature of Blitzkrieg-tactics AND the fact you have a Non-Agression Pact, I see no objection to stationing them in Siberia

	30-09-2002 03:30									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Andrew1999 What would have happened if Napoleon had advanced up the coast to St. Petersburg instead of to Moscow?

Napoleon's experience with the British had left hi a little irrational on the subjesty of coastlines. Even though St. Petersburg had become the capital of Russia in the 17th century Napoleon decided to shoot for Moscow because he feared that marching on St. Petersburg would have left one flank of his Grand Armee open to attack by the British!

	06-01-2003 17:19									#33
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All is simple- because no one, never was able to conquer Russia and no one ever will. Because- Russkie ne zdayutsya.
The rest is bullsh!t.

	06-01-2003 17:24									#34
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quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick He refused to allow tactical retreat or defensive measures.

In memouirs of one very high ranked German general who served in feildmarshal von Kluge HQ iirc, I've read that he consider that this Hitler's decision SAVED German army from collapse. He says that if Hitler didn't gave this order Wermach would shared the fate of great Napoleon army.

	06-01-2003 20:03									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Serb All is simple- because no one, never was able to conquer Russia and no one ever will. Because- Russkie ne zdayutsya. The rest is bullsh!t.

Surely? Genghis Khan kicked your butts pretty good.

	06-01-2003 20:09									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Serb All is simple- because no one, never was able to conquer Russia and no one ever will. Because- Russkie ne zdayutsya.

The Kaiser fared pretty well against your army and he had less troops on that front than Hitler.

	06-01-2003 20:36									#37
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quote: Surely? Genghis Khan kicked your butts pretty good.

I wouldn't start waving my penis yet, both of you, UR and Serb. the line above is right for both of you.

Actually, I think that Russia would benefit greatly if it would have been defeated by Napoleon. And IIRC, napoleon wasn't the one to declare war on Russia.

Napoleon

	06-01-2003 21:00									#38
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But who kicked the Mongols out first? We did.

	06-01-2003 21:02									#39
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I read somewhere that the reason why Napoleon lost so badly was he didn't have proper shoes for his troops.

	06-01-2003 21:14									#40
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The French lost because they were French.
The Germans lost because they tried to take everyone on at once.

	06-01-2003 22:10									#41
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Invasions of Russia are badly hampered by weather and the immense size of the country. Supplying one's troops becomes incredibly difficult.

Napolean and Hitler lost because both bit off more (much more) than they could chew.

-Arrian

	06-01-2003 22:12									#42
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cold, and lots of it!

	06-01-2003 23:11									#43
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Russian women are so ugly that French and German troops lost the will to fight. Why bother.

	06-01-2003 23:19									#44
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Supply / Long Distances / Underestimating the Cold.

	06-01-2003 23:32									#45
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Of course, the all time worst invasion of Russia would have to be the Russian Civil War interventions by the Allies.

	06-01-2003 23:34									#46
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quote: Russian women are so ugly that French and German troops lost the will to fight. Why bother.

God have mercy on this deluded lost soul.




UGLY:

	06-01-2003 23:47									#47
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Many causes why Hitler lost.

He attacked too late in the year and thus had his troops face incredible hardships because of his stubborness.

He constantly interfered in military decisions, often overriding his generals when he felt the need. Example of this was that one of the panzer generals was pushing hell for leather for Moscow but was told to turn back and help in the encirclement of prisoners. Result - lots of prisoners captured ( millions even ) but Moscow was fortified and reinforced before the Germans eventually got there.

He forced Germany to fight a war on two fronts, by leaving England still in the fight he seriously degraded his striking power that he could have used against Russia.

Supply of troops was hard, transferring stuff by rail was hard as rail gauge for Europe & Russia is different - Europe is standard gauge & Russia wide IIRC.

Finally,

quote: Originally posted by Serb quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick He refused to allow tactical retreat or defensive measures. In memouirs of one very high ranked German general who served in feildmarshal von Kluge HQ iirc, I've read that he consider that this Hitler's decision SAVED German army from collapse. He says that if Hitler didn't gave this order Wermach would shared the fate of great Napoleon army.

Yes I read about this too somewhere else, Hitler in forcing his troops to hold their ground prevented them from routing and kept the Wehrmacht from collapsing. However, by this action even though he saved the army structure he condemned tens of thousands or hundred thousands of german men to injury or death. He saved the army itself but lost half the men doing so. Ouch.

	07-01-2003 00:36									#48
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quote: Hitlers failure could attributed to the failure of the pro-German Yugoslav government to maintain power. Germany had to invade Yugoslavia pushing back the Russian invasion five weeks. With those five weeks, the Germans would have surely taken Moscow. Stalin would have been forced to sue for peace.

If this had not happened, then the Germans would not have invaded Greece, meaning that British could probably have taken Tripoli and wrapped up North Africa. From there, the Greeks could be reinforced even more and Italy would probably be forced out of Albania.

Then what happens? As has been said, Germany's airforce would be in better shape, but it's units would also be less experienced, and they may still have a belief in the utility of paratroops, perhaps using them at a key battle, only to find out that paratroops are not as effective as one might think.

Britain is not tied up fighting Rommel in North Africa, and is able to mess about somewhere else. I doubt an invasion of France by Britain alone is on the cards though. A strike against Norway, or maybe Italy. Liberating Norway would certainly help supplies reach Russia. Rommel, meanwhile, is able to work his magic on the Eastern Front.

That's as far as I can see, I'm afraid.

	07-01-2003 00:55									#49
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I'm not sure I buy that timeline. Hitler decided to invade Greece before the coup (to rescue Musssolini), it was only a matter of whether or not Yugoslavia would cooperate with his troops moving through the country. Conquering Yugoslavia only added a few days to the schedule. So with no coup Germany and Italy still end up in control of Greece by about the same date, with Yugoslavia on board as another junior member of the Axis.

If Mussolini had never invaded Greece in the first place, or had been successful, things would have been different. If Italy never invaded I doubt Greece would break neutrality by inviting in the British; they could seet the likely results in Western Europe. If Italy's invasion of mainland Greece was successful, I doubt they could take over all the islands and Crete for example would probably remain in British hands.

	07-01-2003 01:08									#50
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Easy: The "Russian Winter" causes double attrition damage to invading enemy troops. This, combined with their ability to gather oil 10% faster than anyone else, makes them very tough to invade.

	07-01-2003 01:30									#51
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Germany lost to the USSR for a variety of reasons; poor planning and Hitler's interference are the main ones though.

Napoleon lost for one reason: He fought the war with Russia like he fought every other war. March for territory, live off the land, and threaten the enemy's capital. Unfortunately the Russian Army and the Russian nation weren't defeated yet, so Napoleon ended up losing. He figured if he took Moscow (like he had done with Berlin and nearly Vienna about a half dozen times) then Russia would capitulate. If he had known better, then he would have accounted for all of the other problems that popped up.

	07-01-2003 01:58									#52
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quote: I'm not sure I buy that timeline. Hitler decided to invade Greece before the coup (to rescue Musssolini), it was only a matter of whether or not Yugoslavia would cooperate with his troops moving through the country. Conquering Yugoslavia only added a few days to the schedule. So with no coup Germany and Italy still end up in control of Greece by about the same date, with Yugoslavia on board as another junior member of the Axis.

Ah, well then I'm mostly wrong then. Still, it was an enormous blunder not taking Tripoli when we had the chance.

	07-01-2003 06:08									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia Hitler didnt assemble enought divisions. He could have taken Moscow on the first attempt. He also could have invaded 21 days earlier.

No he couldn't have. It rains in May in Russia and the country turns to mud. It takes several weeks for the country to dry out enough for trucks to be able to drive on Russian dirt roads. Had the invasion been launched any sooner, the armor would have quickly outpaced their resupply ability, the Soviets would have counter-attacked, and Germany would have been defeated in 1941.

	07-01-2003 06:10									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel God have mercy on this deluded lost soul.

Russian women start out gorgeous, then the get older. Krupskaya was a total babe in her youth. Russia is hard on its women.

	07-01-2003 06:12									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel God have mercy on this deluded lost soul. UGLY:

But she looks like a drunken German grabbed a housefrau one cold night.

	07-01-2003 15:18									#56
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quote: Russian women start out gorgeous, then the get older.

agreed!

	07-01-2003 16:18									#57
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Geramny had to divert troops to Greece because Italy failed to capture Greece.

That slowed the invasion of Germany to Russia. And Hitler did it in the harsh winter.

I'm not saying that if it wasnt done in winter Germany would have won.

Im saying that we did help the russians by defeating Italy and (unfortunately) forcing Germany to assist them and delay them.

Yes after that dodecanese passed from Italy to Greece. Also S. Albania would have also passed to Greece but it didnt. Greece had 2/3s of Albania in its command sicne the Greco-Italian war happened mainly in Albania.

	07-01-2003 16:20									#58
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And Im pretty sure that were it not for Italy attacking Greece, Greece would not have been involved in that war.

It was a pissing contest between England and Germany for which many countries suffered from it. Yugoslavia also.

	07-01-2003 17:38									#59
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"It rains in May in Russia and the country turns to mud. "

Beat me to it..

In Russia May is worse than November as far as mechanised forces are concerned...though I would hesitate to go quite so far as to say Germany loses in '41!

As for Greece, as Paiktis says, they had no intention on getting involved...Metaxas refused Churchills offer of support because he didn't want to annoy the Germans, so there's no reason to assume he (or his successor) would suddenly declare war.

Now...Napoleon....

Strangelove said something earlier about heading for St Petersburg, and Napoleon's fear of the coast (or words to that effect)...the main reason for not going for St Petersburg as the main thrust (there was a force sent that way, Bavarians mainly, as a flanking guard) was that there is a very large fortress in the way at Riga, which is not easy tp besiege because of its sea access (in fact it would have been impossible).

Trip brings up an important point about Napoleon...he always, always, ALWAYS went for the capital on the basis that the enemy would then surrender...and everytime it failed! Everytime he had to fight one more battle (at least) before that country surrendered (Austerlitz, Friedland, Wagram). He never learnt...and finally in Russia (and Spain) he came a cropper when he simply ran out of strength to fight that final battle.

	07-01-2003 17:41									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Tolls As for Greece, as Paiktis says, they had no intention on getting involved...Metaxas refused Churchills offer of support because he didn't want to annoy the Germans, so there's no reason to assume he (or his successor) would suddenly declare war.

He also refused the offer by Italy and Germany to join their side.