07-01-2003 17:45									#61
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True...he (like Turkey really...) wanted nothing to do with it all...

	07-01-2003 17:54									#62
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Exactly

Too bad we were forced into this bloodmayhem of yours(=englandgermanyfrance whatever) of course.

	07-01-2003 18:39									#63
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Blame the Italians (in your case, anyway)...

	07-01-2003 18:44									#64
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who could blame musollini?

the guy was so pathetic and ridiculous you could only feel laughter and pity for him

the grandfather of one of my friends has a cat he has named musolini

	07-01-2003 18:45									#65
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we are talking abpout blaming people who actually do have a brain

	07-01-2003 18:50									#66
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And my own grandfather helped an italian escape execution from the Germans. I can hold no grudges against The Italianos, I love them

	07-01-2003 20:05									#67
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I can't believe this hasn't been mentioned...

The Germans were greeted as liberators in Russia and particularly the Ukraine by people sick of Stalin and his reforms. Had these people gotten support or at least decent treatment the Germans could have raised many divisions to fight the Sovs. Instead the SS came on the heals of the onrushing divisions and started doing what they do, murder, torture, rounding people up. Hell, some Nazi party bigshot, I forget who, actually gave a speach in Kiev in front of an eager crowd and told them they were all inferior subhumans! How to make friends and influence people, right? Before you know it partisans were all over German supply. The Germans couldn't possibly gaurd the railroad tracks in the endless steppe, but the tried and the effort detracted from the front.
Germans lost because they are Germans.

	07-01-2003 20:17									#68
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errm, you're generalizing, Lancer. SOME people were happy about the fact that Hitler 'liberated' them, esp. many people in the baltic states, and east poland that was just annexed to the SU. but most people were very loyal to the Soviet government, esp. in Russia.

	07-01-2003 20:37									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel but most people were very loyal to the Soviet government, esp. in Russia.

Loyal or afraid? The germans stupidity gave the Russians no choice in their loyality. The other peoples of the USSR could and did serve, especially when german manpower began running low (Cossack calvary, the atlantic wall troops were from the USSR etc.)

	08-01-2003 00:12									#70
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Geramny had to divert troops to Greece because Italy failed to capture Greece. That slowed the invasion of Germany to Russia.

The invasion of the USSR wasn't delayed even by a single hour. It went off at the day and the hour planned for it to happen. The Balkan diversion delayed nothing.

	08-01-2003 00:16									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Ozz Loyal or afraid?

Both. While the peasants (who were still in the majority) had been royally screwed by Stalin, the people living in the cities had seen a massive increase in their standard of living. It's not for no reason that even today Stalin has millions of followers in the former USSR.

Ukrainian nationalists joined up with the Nazis, and IIRC, the first massacre at Baba Yar was actually carried out by Ukrainians, not the SS.

	08-01-2003 00:21									#72
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara The invasion of the USSR wasn't delayed even by a single hour. It went off at the day and the hour planned for it to happen. The Balkan diversion delayed nothing.

No. This is blatantly wrong. Not to mention the amount of troops diverted to do something Italy started but couldn't do.

	08-01-2003 01:28									#73
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The Winter of 1812 was incredibly MILD for Russian winters: in retelling the great difficulties of the Grand Armee retreating, we get at least one description of great suffereing as many men drowned, or were left on the wrong bank when the ice over one major broke under the retreating army: the ice was weak due to the mildness of the winter. Napoleon made many mistakes. his army could have sat in moscow th whole mild winter and survived to campaign the next. Why he decided not to sit in Moscow, I cant tell, but it was a terrible mistake for his army.

	08-01-2003 01:55									#74
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I thought it had something to do with the Russians

	08-01-2003 15:01									#75
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"Why he decided not to sit in Moscow, I cant tell, but it was a terrible mistake for his army."

I believe he had insufficient supplies to last out in Moscow for the winter months...there was no way of getting supplies to him, and he didn't trust his allies to remain allies (Prussia and Austria) for those winter months. So all in all logistically and politically he felt it unwise to spend 3 or 4 months tied up in Moscow.

Indeed, his flanking forces were also disintegrating under Russian pressure on the northern flank at least (and probably the southern as well) and it is unlikely they would have survived another 3 months holding out there...so come the spring he would have had a half starved army in Moscow, completely cut off from Poland.

	08-01-2003 15:15									#76
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quote: Originally posted by sas We're having this discussion at Historic Battles. Why not join the discussion? ******** Both Napoleon and Hitler tried it, and both failed. Russia's size, abundant manpower and harsh winters have defeated any external enemy. Was the German (Axis) and Napoleons armies doomed from the day they set they're foot in Russian soil? Or did they both make critical mistakes that caused they’re own downfall. Over a century span the two invasions, and still they have so much in common, why do you think they both failed? ********

Both leaders had too little force to impose their will over so much area in order to secure political goals that were too unpopular with the native population.

	08-01-2003 15:47									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Tolls "Why he decided not to sit in Moscow, I cant tell, but it was a terrible mistake for his army." I believe he had insufficient supplies to last out in Moscow for the winter months...there was no way of getting supplies to him, and he didn't trust his allies to remain allies (Prussia and Austria) for those winter months. So all in all logistically and politically he felt it unwise to spend 3 or 4 months tied up in Moscow. Indeed, his flanking forces were also disintegrating under Russian pressure on the northern flank at least (and probably the southern as well) and it is unlikely they would have survived another 3 months holding out there...so come the spring he would have had a half starved army in Moscow, completely cut off from Poland.

Yes, his cavalry was being slaughtered on both flanks. He was already losing the cavalry war, and would have had to abandon all his cav in order to winter in Moscow. There seems to be a pretty direct correlation between Napolean's cavalry strength in theatre and his success. Once his ability to see the enemy while they were blind to his movements was removed he wasn't nearly as difficult to defeat.