29-09-2002 05:50									#1
	Ideas to use Communism to Adv. Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Now I know Communism is shunned by many player for some odd reason (Perhaps its all the propaganda we've been hearing as we grow up... lol) but if used properly Communism can be a ultimate government for both war and peace production. Most people switch from Democracy to Monarchy for Peace/Wartime govt, but Communism can not only replace Monarchy for wartime but mite be also somewhat effective as permeanant govt!

Heres My Idea:

Forced Labor: It is very often shunned upon, because of tremendous negative effect (Massive Population die + Permeanant negative feeling from citizen). But how does negative feeling actually work? does it disappear when govt is change? and is it only for that particular city? If Answer to second is yes, you can dedicate some cities with some good arable land away from your capitol as human labor camp and rush bunch of units. If they grow back and remember your atrocity, just keep killing them off by rushing. If the city gets widely unmanageable due to unhappiness, just export workers from the city or downright abandon and build again. Do this with Alot of the foreign population city you captured and you will have huge production success without a single gold spent.

2 Citizen Draft: Abuse this as well to build army qucikly on the same city. remeber, Riflemen and Infantry have decent attack rating (4 and 6) and they overall, free. Use them as meatshield to rush agst Elite defenders before attcking the city.

Corruption Management: Communism doesnt have DC type corruption (distance away from capitol). Corruption is flat % of 30%. OCN type corruption can be handled easily with lots of police station and Forbidden Palace which gives +100% OCN instead of a capitol. Choosing Commercial will give additional +25% OCN. This way you can manage alot of cities without corruption troubles, which means you can have more labor camps.

It has worked in Civ II with any types of govt (but most effective with communism) and I used this hive like empire alot.
Unless unhappiness for using forced labor is not pertaining to just the city that was enslaved to do so. I will try out the technique and see how effective it is and repost with results.

	29-09-2002 07:18									#2
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People shunn it because it fails to produce enough. The numbers have been posted and it is painful. I can not speak for others, but I do not shift out of my current form of governament for anything, once I go to either Republic or Democracy. This is very painful unless you are religous. It is just as easy to appease the populace with luxs or jokers, unless the war is started by you and is going to be quite long. I did run into some WW in my last emperor game because I made peace and was force into war next turn and decidec to give no quarter. All you need to know is how much communism hurts the AI, once they switch to it they are doomed.

	29-09-2002 10:56									#3
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Calc II,

Good thoughts, but unfortunately Communism has some major problems, the big ones being that BOTH of your great ideas under "Forced Labor" don't work... the bad feelings survive both changing government and even disbanding the city (I know, Stalin and Dzershinzki would have never approved).

As it stands, Communism is non-optimal except for very specific circumstances.

	30-09-2002 04:30									#4
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I beg to differ gentlemen. While I am a pure republic/democracy guy myself, in times of war, communism can be a lifesaver. I have been forced into war w/o enough luxs to appease my citizens, and I can't get out of the war before the hippies start turning up. Agreed, unless one is a religious civ, switching is a pain in the ass, but in times of national crisis, when every valuable city of mine is burning, communism is a viable alternative.

	30-09-2002 04:53									#5
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Communism is useful in a few cases when a player has a huge sprawling empire. In my mind, Monarchy is clearly superior in any game where the player still has a realistic chance of losing.

There are so many other really good Industrial Age techs that in many multiplayer games I predict Communism will be ignored. The exception is the player close to completing the Theory of Evolution. That player might get Communism in order to get another more expensive tech for free. I see no chance that that player would actually switch to Communism and forfeit their tech lead. If forced, he/she goes to Monarchy to quell the war protesters.

The 30% corruption figure sounds like Regent level. On Emperor or Deity and it is more like 50% to 60% for a large empire.

I do not understand why Firaxis made Communism the weakest form of government. Especially given some of their other politically correct design decisions, and that Communism is the last government tech available.

As I said, Monarchy is clearly superior in war time for any medium to large size empire. If a player rules half the world or more, the game is no longer in doubt, and any government will win the game, even one as weak as Communism.
- Bill

	30-09-2002 05:43									#6
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Well I do not think many have argued that no possible scenario exist for communism to be valid, only that is not often.
Maybe it is weakest, because it really is the weakest, it has been the least sucessful and is the last form devised so far.

	30-09-2002 07:46									#7
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I think vxma1 is on target... in fact, the few applications of Communism that I advocate sound suspiciously like the real thing (Soviet version).

I use it as Stalin would.

	01-10-2002 06:34									#8
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quote: Originally posted by BillChin The 30% corruption figure sounds like Regent level. On Emperor or Deity and it is more like 50% to 60% for a large empire. - Bill

u sure it wasn't just too many cities. Corruption counts higher when you have too much cities and that's not under 30% corruption base.

Please be sure to check things and base it on tests and if ur guessing make sure to indicate it because guessing just becomes misleading facts as they get passed on and on. I get very suspicious of people's information when it conflicts my tests (although they are not always perfect)... most people assume things as do i and it gets very all confusing... especially when patches come out. People still tell me comercial sux to this day, but with new changes it's actually quite good and sometimes I wonder if people who say it sux say it knowing the changes (which i fair enough) or w/o knowing the chnages.

quote: Calc II, Good thoughts, but unfortunately Communism has some major problems, the big ones being that BOTH of your great ideas under "Forced Labor" don't work... the bad feelings survive both changing government and even disbanding the city (I know, Stalin and Dzershinzki would have never approved). As it stands, Communism is non-optimal except for very specific circumstances.

and it sux that people's resentment doesn't stay just in that city. Though when I ran a test, it seemed to stick to only cities... are you guys sure that this is nation-wide problem thing or just guessing? most people don't even seem to know how communism works...

forced labor is kinda useless since it takes so much citizen lives to finsih nearly anything and could only be done w/ high population city... I ended up just abusing 2 draft rule for most part but that is alsoavailable in monarchy, so unless I come up with somethign else with communism, I can't make a different tactic I wouldn't be able to do with monarchy.

you can still make a hive empire tho... that works quite effectively, especially with communism's ability to handle corruption due to number of city is higher than other gov. But if you do get carried away (which i did on my test building every other square), corruption does scale rapidly, so you still have to be careful of how many cities your managing. It's most likely Bill encountered this problem.

I'm currently using France (commercial, industrious), with one ai (bottled up in one square island) random map i made in editor. I am just currently testing the domestic capability of the empire and it has yet to be tested in actual real game enviornment codition, but the empire has been very productive and despite many atrocities caused and drafts made, its been smooth so far. I noticed wheat helps alot in clumped cities cause they can grow rapidly and can take alot of forced labor beating on the city.

i will play more and post wat i learn here

	01-10-2002 09:50									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Calc II and it sux that people's resentment doesn't stay just in that city. Though when I ran a test, it seemed to stick to only cities... are you guys sure that this is nation-wide problem thing or just guessing? most people don't even seem to know how communism works...

Confirmed by Firaxis programmers that unhappiness moves to nearest city if a city is abandoned. Also confirmed that unhapiness stays following a government change.

Finally, confirmed during play-testing that unhappiness travels with a settler created in disbanding a city used to pop-rush too often.

The challenge with Communism, IMHO, is that it is very difficult to guesstimate when it might be advantageous -- it is so rarely useful as a government choice that most players don't have enough experience with it in real game situations to say "Ah . . . here is where 10 turns in Communism makes the game." On balance, with the concept of setting up cores (applicable to Despotism, Monarchy, Republic and Democracy) Communism just has a lot of trouble competing. In most real game instances, it serves only to siphon productivity away from the core, while adding middling productivity to the fringe - not always a good trade.

I still have never gone to Communism as a tactic in a game situation unless I'm a religious civ and have identifiable goals with a Communist government -- this despite experimenting with Communism in many a saved game (test) to determine its usefullness in a given situation.

Catt

	01-10-2002 11:07									#10
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I that about says it Catt. I do not see any reason to use it and only concede that there maybe one, but even the ones suggest are not for certain, i just allow that it could be.

	26-10-2002 17:13									#11
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Use for communism. Captured a vast swathe of land on the other side of the map from home territory. in the subsequent interbellum I needed to shift palace with no GL, religious civ so just switched to communism while palace was built. Surrounding cities had factories complete or nearly so by the time I switched back to democracy.

	26-10-2002 18:53									#12
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I think that Communism should have only 15% base corruption (prior to factoring in OCN corruption), instead of the current 30%. This would make Communism significantly more productive, and would make it worthwhile for smaller empires that don't experience any OCN corruption.

	26-10-2002 21:56									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Ijuin I think that Communism should have only 15% base corruption (prior to factoring in OCN corruption), instead of the current 30%. This would make Communism significantly more productive, and would make it worthwhile for smaller empires that don't experience any OCN corruption.

An interesting proposal, unfortunately, there is no way to do this with the editor. I think most experienced players agree that Communism needs a major upgrade if it is to be used at all in competitive multiplayer games. Some ideas I have floated include:
1) Ten free unit support so small empires can field a large army.
2) Doubled unit support per town 4/8/16 up from 2/4/8, so players can role play the huge conscript armies favored by Communist states.

One of these for additional game balance:
3a) Six MP up from four MP.
3b) Free maintenance on all buildings.

All of these are readily doable and would make Communism attractive for small militarist empires (ten free units), and give more gold for spy missions or teching.

I have no idea what the Firaxis playtesters were thinking when they made an optional Industrial Age tech so much weaker than Ancients Age ones.
- Bill

	28-10-2002 12:16									#14
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IIRC communism is a requirement for espionage and , um, police stations. I wouldn't say it was optional. The branch ends in a dead end but reduced corruption and the ability to spy are fairly critical IMHO.

	28-10-2002 13:55									#15
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Nothing compares to Fundamentalist or Communism in CIV2 in my opinion.

Although I've very disappointed at the lack of government types for CIV3. With only five governments (not including anarchy, which is obviously not in the same boat as the rest) there really isn't a great variety to choose from.

I use Communism expressely when I want to wage war, and I don't mean half-assed conflicts I mean world domination. Although after being Communist for too long, I felt that no matter how good my science/income status was, the Democracies of my civ world were pulling ahead of me all the time in the tech race.

I generally stick to Republic, although if Firaxis had made Socialism, Fascism, etc I would have enjoyed this game more. Socialism could be a more republican form of Communism (if that makes any sense) and well we all know about Fascism.

	29-10-2002 00:26									#16
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Yes, soap production at an all time high.

	29-10-2002 01:12									#17
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Communism simply shouldn't be on the list. It is not a form of government. Ideally, one should be able to choose an economic form as well as a political form, but Civ isn't SMAC. BTW, vmxa, I'm going to have to disagree with your claim that communism is 'really' the weakest, given that it's never been tried.

	29-10-2002 02:58									#18
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I agree. Communist states are first and foremost identified by their economic structure. Police States politics are not an intended rulership method for a Communism - at least not in theory. Once you get into the idea of a paternalistic ruling party that prescribes decisions for its citizens, then it can become a police state.

But a Planned economy does not necessarily make for a militaristic, police state regime - at least not in theory.

	29-10-2002 03:28									#19
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quote: Originally posted by punkbass2000 Communism simply shouldn't be on the list. It is not a form of government. Ideally, one should be able to choose an economic form as well as a political form, but Civ isn't SMAC. BTW, vmxa, I'm going to have to disagree with your claim that communism is 'really' the weakest, given that it's never been tried.

What is the basis for your disagreement? Just be contrary or do you have some data? The idea that it has not been tried, because what we have seen does not met your theory of what it should be is of no merit. I mean, you are saying it has failed because we did not have the proper people to implement it? That is a asine. We have to judge on what we have seen, not some thing we dream of. Any way no system will work that relies on one to work for the benefit of another. Many people will not even work to benefit themselves.

	29-10-2002 07:12									#20
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For people who want more governments, what would you want? In Civ 2 Fundamentalism was too unblanacing, and lets be honest, even if it wasn't removed as a government during Civ3 development, it would have been yanked before it hit the shelves for obvious reasons (the civ 2 Fanatic unit was basically a suicide terrorist unit). IMHO Civ 2 fundamentalism should have had production halved in addition to its science (since many fundamentalist governments only allow half i.e. male population to be productive anyways). What Firaxis should have done is renamed it "military" with the same penalities (due to jailing diissadents/inability to manage infrastructure)

As for Communism. I've never used it and dont plan too, especially since I'm not much of a warmonger.

	29-10-2002 14:28									#21
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CiverDan - have a look at SMAC's "pick and choose" governmental palette. There, they separated out a society's structure along lines of Politics, Economy, and Values. I thought it was pretty good because you can have subtleties of government... a Militaristic Democracy that practised an ecofriendly Green economy, for example. Reflects somewhat more accurately on the wide variety of governments out there in the real world!

As for Fundamentalism in Civ2, don't forget that a Fundamentalist state's max Science production will actually only be 40%, not 50%, since Fundamentalism only allows the slider to be set at 80% max.

If you've never used Communism, perhaps that's an indication that it deserves some redesigning?

	29-10-2002 20:20									#22
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quote: Originally posted by bbaws IIRC communism is a requirement for espionage and , um, police stations. I wouldn't say it was optional. The branch ends in a dead end but reduced corruption and the ability to spy are fairly critical IMHO.

Police stations are useful, however, they are primarily for large to huge empires. For a medium sized empire, court houses are often enough. In a competitive game, the time to research the optional tech and build police stations is a major detour that may lose the game while other players are bulding units or other improvements. In any case, that player will not consider switching governments to Communism and that is why I push for a major upgrade.

Espionage is a separate optional tech. Communism makes spies more effective, but they have no gold to conduct missions so the spy bonus is close to useless.

I can see very few circumstances where Communism will be the government of choice in a competitive multiplayer game. For this reason it needs a major upgrade. Similar for Democracy, though there are a handful of times (faster workers) where it may be useful for Religious civs. I propose a major upgrade for Communism (ten free units, doubled unit support 4/8/16 and free maintenance on all buildings), and a minor upgrade for Democracy (0/1/2 unit support).
- Bill

	29-10-2002 20:42									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Alinestra Covelia If you've never used Communism, perhaps that's an indication that it deserves some redesigning?

If you've never actually used a government to see for yourself how it works for you, how are you qualified to say whether of not it needs redesigning?

I'm not going to get into an argument with Bill and company on the merits (or lack thereof) of Communism in Civ3 (we differ and I imagine that won't change).

All I'll say is don't go on hearsay and expert opinions. Try it and see for yourself if you can fit it into your plans. I can on occasion find good use for it.

	30-10-2002 02:19									#24
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Communism is so bad that I stay in Republic. I fight oscillating wars, so that it takes a long time for WW to build enough to nesseciatate the change, and then only if I can halve the size of any technological competitors.

	30-10-2002 02:46									#25
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 What is the basis for your disagreement? Just be contrary or do you have some data?

I'm not sure what you mean by data, but I can tell you with complete certainty that there has not been anything resembling communism since people lived in small clans.

quote: The idea that it has not been tried, because what we have seen does not met your theory of what it should be is of no merit.

It's not just my theory, it is the theory of communism.

quote: I mean, you are saying it has failed because we did not have the proper people to implement it?

No, I'm saying Stalin took over and ruined the country. That is simply not communism.

quote: That is a asine. We have to judge on what we have seen, not some thing we dream of.

True. And we haven't seen it.

I would argue that capitalism does not work, at least it doesn't work for very many people. Not to mention that capitalism and democracy cannot exist within the same society.

	30-10-2002 03:48									#26
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I get the tech because I always want police stations. Both for the corruption fighting help, and the WW reduction, since I intend to remain a democracy even while fighting aggressive wars. I like having my cake and eating it too.

-Arrian

	30-10-2002 05:21									#27
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I think the whole point is that there is no utopia and nothing will work for everyone. That is why I prefer the least amount of government as possible as failure and success should not be determined by the government.
BTW communism before Stalin did not meet with any definition of success I would recognize.

	30-10-2002 07:23									#28
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 I think the whole point is that there is no utopia and nothing will work for everyone. That is why I prefer the least amount of government as possible as failure and success should not be determined by the government. BTW communism before Stalin did not meet with any definition of success I would recognize.

What communism?

	30-10-2002 12:37									#29
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Communism is only as useless as your empire was before you switched to it. If you've built a goodly number of police staions as well as courthouses all round and nursed your WLTKDs you get the same corruption fighting effects spread throughout your empire. This will mess things up a bit in that you might have to fine tune most of your cities for efficient production. In the aftermath of a large belligerent acquisition, especially in the era of artillery, it is invaluable in restoring infrastructure. It's a good idea to get your cash reserves up before you switch but not necessary. Rather than letting population starve as they produce one shield a turn, get them producing more and build temples out of their rotting corpses.
Bill you seem to have missed the PTW section of the forum. This is the CIV3 strategy part. You see no way to use communism, fine, you reply to a post where I bothered to give an example. Here's another. If you are going to quote me then take the time to read what I have posted.

	30-10-2002 18:29									#30
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I don't know whether this is just me but if I change my government to communism I find that the production in my cities keep the "old" shieldage. This doesn't change until I change my building. Eg, if I'm building the FP and change to communism I'll still only get one shield in this highly corrupt city. The same goes for the capital, whatever I'm building I'm still going to finish this with a non-corrupt shieldage, but the next thing in que will get built with 80% production.

Is it just me or?

/Vlado