30-09-2002 00:33									#1
	UNofficial... Republic after Persia? Suffering from ads?

The Apolytonian Republican Front (ARF) wants to know what the current stance of the citizens of Apolytonia is toward our movement to topple the monarchy and replace it with a Republic immediately (as in 1-2 turns afterward, allowing for war weariness to disipate) following the end of the war with Persia.

While the vile monarchists may attempt to coerce any who would support our valiant cause, we are certain that this poll is using a "secret ballot" so that the wretched monarchists will be unable to determine who voted in favor or against

As such, feel safe to vote however you truly believe.

	30-09-2002 00:40									#2
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

YES!!!!! So we will already be in Republic for GA!

OMG!!! What am I saying?!?!?! I'm on the cusp of power! I could loose all!!

	30-09-2002 00:46									#3
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

We have to try to determine how bad war-weariness will be when we switch over- since we lack a market infrastructure and a large amount of cathedrals, war -weariness after such long campaigns will hit us badly. We also have to prepare to strike a very quick blow against the Americans.

Until we have a good 'happyness' infrastructure (markets so that we get 6 happy faces a city from luxuries or 6 happy faces from cathedrals) and created a war plan vs. America to finish them off in 3-4 turns at most, we should hold off any change to Republic. If these two conditions met, then fine, lets switch as quickly as possible.

	30-09-2002 00:46									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

i'm saying no for the sheer military reasons.


we're far too warmongering a people to sustain a republic

	30-09-2002 00:48									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I am a full suporter for republic. Down with the monarchy!!!!

	30-09-2002 00:53									#6
	Full PM-box? Change here!

NO! Uphold the Monarchy!

	30-09-2002 01:30									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

How many marketplaces do we have?

	30-09-2002 01:36									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Lets go republic. Stop these long drawn out wars. If we must fight, make them as quick as possible.

	30-09-2002 03:00									#9
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Absolutely NOOOOO!


Before Republic can be seriously entertained, we need navigation, a Harbor on Uber, and road linkup on Uber.

Remember folks, Garrisons don't put down the hotheads in Republic. Uber has no happy or smiley faces and no hopes of getting any soon.

Or alternatively temples across Uber.

	30-09-2002 03:20									#10
	Inflate your Upload Space

I agree with roadcage , uber and sheik. I'm for republic too, but not now. We need marketplaces, cathedrals and navigation, or we'll find impossible develop Uber Isle, for instance.
Btw, in my games I usually change from monarchy to democracy.

	30-09-2002 04:24									#11
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Definetely we should hold off on the switching to Republic until we're prepared i.e. building marketplaces for happiness from imports, as well as harbors. Until we have the infrastructure to connect our cities better on the happiness scale, it could be disastrous, especially if the general consensus is that we move to war with the Americans...

Meshelic
Shadow Service

	30-09-2002 04:31									#12
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Honestly, it's never too late for a GA, and I definitely don't approve of wasting it on a bunch of dirt clod cities like we have now.

Can you imagine having your GA in the middle of the space race....................

	30-09-2002 05:49									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

After Persia we still need to conquer America.

	30-09-2002 05:56									#14
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I'm voting no for now. At the very least, we should have cathedrals built where needed to make up for the military-police effect on happiness under monarchy. Also, Im pretty sure we are going to attack america, and it doesnt make sense to switch until we are sure we are headed for a long period of peace (assuming we start the wars anyways).

Also, I dont think we are quiet ready for our GA, Im leaning towards waiting and getting it from Hoover Dam, honestly. Though now that we have the pyramids, we may end up getting it from the next wonder we build no matter what it is, Im really not sure

	30-09-2002 06:33									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

you expect large periods of peace? what about manifest destiny?

	30-09-2002 07:02									#16
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: you expect large periods of peace? what about manifest destiny?

My definition of long period of peace, is 20-30 turns, enough for a golden age and to build up marketplaces & cathedrals. And in terms of expecting it, well Im not sure, Im just sure there's no point in switching to a republic if we aren't going to have a period of peace at all.

	30-09-2002 08:00									#17
	Remove this text

As for the arguments of Manifest Destiny and Long periods of peace.....


i bring into question, the actual temporal length of the demo game..

If we want to throw a nice, sizeable period of peace before any ideas of world domination, ultimately, we should be adding time to how long this demo game goes..


If we just keep rampaging, the demo game should end sooner, and then we gotta start a new one, or sulk.

What do we want?

Personally, i like the idea of a period of peace, but then again, i've never liked global domination (and i warmonger alot in my own games).

It allows a period of buildup, perhaps we can build a great tech lead, and it will ultimately make this game last longer, even if we must end it with a gigantic military push for domination.


so, go Republic!

	30-09-2002 12:42									#18
	Support Apolyton

Yes, but only when it is supportable and more profitaqle than Monarchy is for us now.

We will need to consume significant amounts of resources to stay in happiness if we switched to Republic any time soon. Troops must be relocated, some more luxuries procured and the cities we will not use as settler/worker factories need marketplaces, temples and perhaps even cathedrals. We end the Persian war, get ready, and THEN Republicans can depose the King.

I estimate this gives OPD just enough time to retire gracefully as King before having his status as Mouthpiece for the Big Banana revoked forcibly.

Of course, if not, he will become Representative of the People. But, no-one being divine like the Big Banana, this is a considerable step down.

	30-09-2002 13:04									#19
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt I estimate this gives OPD just enough time to retire gracefully as King before having his status as Mouthpiece for the Big Banana revoked forcibly. Of course, if not, he will become Representative of the People. But, no-one being divine like the Big Banana, this is a considerable step down.

Nay... this is not a "step down" at all, but rather a significant step UP! For which is truly more grand? Being the sycophant of a decrepidly corrupt and blasphemous "monarch" or to be the personification of the will and soul of the people? For is it not grander for the leader, himself, to be heralded as the chosen of the source for all legitimacy (the source having changed from a false divinity to the true will of the people)?

	30-09-2002 15:27									#20
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Ninot i bring into question, the actual temporal length of the demo game.. If we want to throw a nice, sizeable period of peace before any ideas of world domination, ultimately, we should be adding time to how long this demo game goes.. If we just keep rampaging, the demo game should end sooner, and then we gotta start a new one, or sulk. What do we want?

We have already played 159 turns or nearly 30% of the total length allowed. As we are very good players we certainly could win sooner, for instance around 1800 : that would still make more than 200 turns to play, or, at our current pace of 10 turns/week, 20 weeks.

	30-09-2002 16:54									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT We have already played 159 turns or nearly 30% of the total length allowed. As we are very good players we certainly could win sooner, for instance around 1800 : that would still make more than 200 turns to play, or, at our current pace of 10 turns/week, 20 weeks.

The problem with peace, in my experience, is that there comes a time when you have built every improvement you really want in each of your cities, and you are waiting around for the next tech to build the next wonder and/or Improvement. Why not throw a war in there just to keep things exciting?

What will there be to do in 200 turns if we decide for a peacefull aproach? Wait around for the next tech and next piece of the Spaceship? Those should be some exciting chats. Wars throughout this process will only allow the game to remain interesting.

	30-09-2002 17:18									#22
	Suffering from ads?

Yes! Peace. Peace and Republic. Don't even bother to attack America.

But... we need enough buildings/luxuries to keep 'em happy, first.

	30-09-2002 17:41									#23
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx What will there be to do in 200 turns if we decide for a peacefull aproach? Wait around for the next tech and next piece of the Spaceship? Those should be some exciting chats. Wars throughout this process will only allow the game to remain interesting.

I cant believe that we will not have defensive wars to fight ; and they are not less exciting that the offensive ones (particularly if they dont end before a punishment phase). We have not yet seen the big stacks crossing our borders, and we have to prepare ourselves to welcome them properly; IMHO it is tactically quite interesting.

Uno, you seem not excited at all by the numerous other challenges offered by the game : score, date of victory, number of happy people, number of civ polite, etc, not to mentionned that the victory in this game will become a reference for other games played by us or by other communities.

BTW, what about a Pantheon of Glorious Communities where would be recorded the achievements of victorious civilizations ?

	30-09-2002 18:52									#24
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT Uno, you seem not excited at all by the numerous other challenges offered by the game : score, date of victory, number of happy people, number of civ polite, etc, not to mentionned that the victory in this game will become a reference for other games played by us or by other communities.

Generally, when I am crushing the AI under my boot I could care less how pleased they are with me. And, no, I don't consider entire chats spent waiting around for the next tech in four turns with every upgrade built in every city, all our citizens happy, and no one willing to attack us exciting. Nor do I consider it a challenge when we reach that state.

	30-09-2002 18:52									#25
	Tired of ads?

roadcage wrote "Before Republic can be seriously entertained, we need navigation, a Harbor on Uber, and road linkup on Uber.

Remember folks, Garrisons don't put down the hotheads in Republic. Uber has no happy or smiley faces and no hopes of getting any soon.

Or alternatively temples across Uber."

Those who are against Republic right after persian/american war, do have a point here, we must prepare our nation for the shift or we would end up struggling to avoid disorders, which would significantly stagnates our development, and as we all (?) agree on annexing america soon enough, our GA should not be triggered in this war. The GA will best be used with Republic or Democracy, so i say save the republic and the GA untill we are ready for it, by triggering at the end of our future war with france (NOT immediately after the annexation of america...), right before we begin another round of (peaceful) scientific and economic development.

	30-09-2002 23:02									#26
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx Generally, when I am crushing the AI under my boot I could care less how pleased they are with me. And, no, I don't consider entire chats spent waiting around for the next tech in four turns with every upgrade built in every city, all our citizens happy, and no one willing to attack us exciting. Nor do I consider it a challenge when we reach that state.

In my builder-ish style of play, I typically play three different types of games:

1. I decide to just have fun... play as a warrior for a game... go around from the ancient age stomping on everything. I find that the Romans are my favorite civ for this because of the UU and commercial (in my opinion, commercial is *essential* for any civ that wants to combat corruption while building a large empire...)

2. Play as an all-out peaceful builder, typically as the Greeks (commercial, scientific, and the UU is essentially a pikeman from the start of the game).

3. The most effective overall strategy I've ever discovered (and it's still my favorite) is to play a warmongering early game to build initial territory... then sit back and go peaceful throughout almost all of the middle age... try to get my GA right near the end of the Middle Age (I like to play commercial civs... so Adam Smith's Trading Company is my favorite wonder to have trigger my GA)... the GA at the end of the middle age gives me a HUGE BOOST right into the start of the industrial age, which is *perfect* for rocketing ahead of every other player in the game and becoming the dominant power... I then use all the extra production of the early industrial age to go STOMP on people again (2nd time). As my opponents approach me in tech again, I switch back to mostly peaceful and wait until I get modern armor and other modern era techs to begin my final stomping-on-people stage and/or head for the space race... generally both in conjunction. I find that playing the English (commercial and expansionist with their UU perfectly timed to the right period of history if they get unlucky triggering GA with Adam Smith or Copernicus) is the most conducive to this strategy.

So you might call me a hybrid builder-warrior who really likes to play commercial civs (because of the reduced corruption... which is the most valuable trait - period - when you're playing a huge empire).

	30-09-2002 23:20									#27
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

If it looks like Germany, Rome, or anybody else is about to sneak attack us, stay Monarchy.

Otherwise switch to Republic.

America can be annexed in one or two turns, and the annexation of America is a good time to tricure our Golden Age.

Rush Buy the Temples, Market Places, Catherdials needed with the increased cash flow from Republic + Golden Age.

Harbors are a low priority except in cities that need them to grow. (No shields in the ocean except the occansional whale resource.)

	30-09-2002 23:53									#28
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Arnelos In my builder-ish style of play, I typically play three different types of games: 3. The most effective overall strategy I've ever discovered (and it's still my favorite) is to play a warmongering early game to build initial territory... then sit back and go peaceful throughout almost all of the middle age... try to get my GA right near the end of the Middle Age (I like to play commercial civs... so Adam Smith's Trading Company is my favorite wonder to have trigger my GA)... the GA at the end of the middle age gives me a HUGE BOOST right into the start of the industrial age, which is *perfect* for rocketing ahead of every other player in the game and becoming the dominant power... I then use all the extra production of the early industrial age to go STOMP on people again (2nd time). As my opponents approach me in tech again, I switch back to mostly peaceful and wait until I get modern armor and other modern era techs to begin my final stomping-on-people stage and/or head for the space race... generally both in conjunction. I find that playing the English (commercial and expansionist with their UU perfectly timed to the right period of history if they get unlucky triggering GA with Adam Smith or Copernicus) is the most conducive to this strategy.

This is what I am saying. During the Late Medeival/early Industrial we will need to take an offensive to Germany unless someone really feels like fighting Panzers. We need periods of peace, but we can still go bonk a few heads now and then.

	01-10-2002 00:58									#29
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx Generally, when I am crushing the AI under my boot I could care less how pleased they are with me. And, no, I don't consider entire chats spent waiting around for the next tech in four turns with every upgrade built in every city, all our citizens happy, and no one willing to attack us exciting. Nor do I consider it a challenge when we reach that state.

I'll be honest. I enjoyed winning the game culturally and scientifically when I first started playing it, but now that I've played the game for nearly a year, it just isn't much fun to get to that point in the game where you're clearly better than everyone else and the only obstacle in your way of winning is waiting out the last 40 turns to get your Space Ship tech and constructing it.

We all live for excitement, conflict, adversity, challanges. I cannot say that a peaceful victory isn't going to be a challange, but it may not be a very entertaining last few months of play.

Anyhow, back on topic, can someone please analyze the net profit and losses from going from Monarchy to Republic. We lose free support for our armies, but gain additional trade. We have enough luxuries to support our continental cities, but I fear our Uber Island ones may be demanding independence.

After the facts are in, I'll weigh my vote. For now I've abstained.

--Togas

	01-10-2002 01:25									#30
	Remove this text

A strong enough army can deter even the Germans. It just takes a larger army to do so against them than the others.

Wars are much more profitable when the offense has an advantage over the defense.

This is the case now, but Gun Powder is about to be discovered, so we need to finish the Persian war and stay out of long-term wars when Musket Men become common.

The next time that Offense will have an advantage is the brief window between Military Tradition and Nationalism. We would also need to be ahead in techs to use this window. Worse yet for the agreesors, Nationalism allows the draft (for 2 citizens get the equalivent of a vetran unit for combat) requires no resources, and all previous defensive units can be updated to them.

War really bogs down with the discovery of Replacable Parts as Calvary are killed in droves both attacking and defending against the latest defensive unit. Railroads are rapidally built up at this point that greatly spend up reinforcements.

The Offensive gets the upper hand again with Tanks + Bombers and the use of the rail network against your oppoent with brizkreig tactics, until Computers in the modern age as all defensive units are upgraded to MI. Then with Synthenic Fibers the offense reins supreme again.