30-09-2002 19:14									#1
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I have found the discussions regarding the issue of when to switch to Republic very interesting, but I think the idea of setting a time for the switch (e.g. some amount of turns after peace with Persia) is wrong. We should rather agree on a number of conditions, and agree that once all these conditions are met we will switch to Republic.
Therefore, I have decided to open this discussion thread. It is an open discussion thread where everyone can make their suggestions and the most popular and/or most interesting lists of conditions will be put in the top post (this post) for everyone to see. Of course, the elected government will have the final say whether or not the public agrees but I do encourage everyone, elected officials or not, to take part in this discussion.
I will begin with my own proposal to start up the discussion:

Plan #1
* At least 4 luxuries are available to our empire.
* Marketplaces in all cities (7 population and above), to increase the output of happy faces so we can support future growth.
* We either get Astronomy or build cathedrals in Uber Isle towns. Since we're getting Astronomy anyway I'd personally prefer the first solution.
* No prolonged wars planned and no war for a set number of turns (still needs to be worked out).

Plan #2
Same as Plan #1 with just one difference:
*Uber Isle should not hold off the switch. If we switch to Republic before we can transfer luxuries to Uber Isle or build cathedrals there we should turn some citizens into entertainers or other specialists (thus lowering production capabilities) or keep the population at one by creating workers that will connect all the city sites so we'll be ready to distribute goods to all of the island when we have Astronomy and a harbor in AGC.
This will most likely be decided by the City Planner whose decision may be based on a separate discussion in a City Council thread.

Plan #2
No distinctively different plans have been suggested yet.

Note: I don't think this topic falls under the areas which any of the Apolytonian societies and foundations that I am a member of deal with. If it does, please accept my apology for not putting the society's name in the thread topic.

Last edited by Shiber on 01-10-2002 at 04:24

	30-09-2002 19:42									#2
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War werieness IIRC is remembered for two turns only. Therefore I would say peace on all fronts for only 1 turn (1 turn peace, followed by 1 turn of anarchy) so that when we emerge in turn 3 with republic, we are all set to go. Please check this math as I rairly play with religious civs (usualy I play with persians).

Other than that sounds good by me.

	30-09-2002 19:47									#3
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I have requested that reddawg do an economic study of the feasiblity of republic. Remember with our increased income we could raise luxuries, however we will be spending more on units so we needto find out how it will turnout. Its possible we could spend more on lux and then increase science and have money to save remeber we will get another luxury soon. Really I was hopping to really concentrate to some degree on cath,marketplaces,libraries during GA(rmemeber we can build knights thru WC, thus freeing up production sheilds elsewhere). One thing remeber due to sustine cath+lux+temple cities are fine w/o extra lux until size 11 and afe ok with temple to size 5.
Aggie

	30-09-2002 19:57									#4
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Good plan, Shiber.
Edit: In fact, is better than this: Excellent thread!

Last edited by Aro on 30-09-2002 at 20:02

	30-09-2002 20:00									#5
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GodKing,

We all play with the Persians at the moment...

	30-09-2002 20:44									#6
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Okay, cathedral sounds good. I will update plan #1 to require either Astronomy or Cathedrals in Uber Island towns.

	30-09-2002 20:49									#7
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I've made some other changes (great idea Godking! I've incorporated that into Plan #1).
Anyway, great ideas everyone. Let's hope this thread develops into an enriching discussion.

Does anyone have any distinctively different plans?

	30-09-2002 20:52									#8
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The war weariness is decreased during the peace turns, in that case for the last two turns, but it is not enough to cancell what has been accumulated during the countless turns we have been at war.

I suggest that the limit for the marketplace be expressed in number of commerce produced rather than in pop.

	30-09-2002 20:59									#9
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There seems to be some disagreement over the war weariness issue. What DAVOUT says, if he is correct, that we should wait a while untill we switch to Republic, but then again, all the rest say this isn't the cased and the weariness is "remembered" for 2 turns after the last war, then cancelled. So is there any way we could verify this, or have an indication when the war weariness is low enough?

	30-09-2002 21:00									#10
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About war weariness, Soren Johnson (Firaxis) said :

basically, there is a war weariness factor that is maintained the same way throughout your entire game, regardless of your government type or war status. The only time this factor affects your citizens is if you are at war while in a demo/rep. Nonetheless, the war weariness factor is actually independent of your actual gov type. (This is meant to symbolize that citizens under a depotism are no less happy about being in a war; they just have fewer outlets for their unhappiness...)

	30-09-2002 21:05									#11
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Davout, I will research into the issue of War Weariness tonight.
Regarding marketplaces, I'm very interested in hearing more opinions and suggestions. The idea that some large cities may not justify building a marketplace because they don't produce enough commerce is interesting. If you can formulate this into a condition form (e.g. build marketplaces in cities with this amount of pop. that produce at least that amount of gold) I can put this as Plan #2.

	30-09-2002 21:14									#12
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well, what we need now, IMHO, is to devise one plan who those that support a shift to Republic can agree upon, as opposed to several plans with very little differences, that reflect minor disagreements (like this issue of marketplace positioning). After we agree on such a plan we should post a poll and after the hopeful support of the public, give this plan to the appropriate ministers and OPD to execute it

	30-09-2002 21:22									#13
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I think the 'disagreement' about marketplaces is due to their dual nature:
1. increase gold by 50%
2. increase the made my lux (after 2 lux)

if we are considering necessary conditions to switch to the republic the second effect is the more important, and is related to city size more than commerce. we should build markets in high commerce cities regardless of size, but is not a necessary condition for revolution. What is a necessary condition is the extra s, which if we have 4/5 luxs is a mater of 2-4 (quite considerable)

also I don't think we should let Uber slow down the switch. No luxs in Uber will simply mean that we have to make entertainers (essentially halting growing in Uber), but the loss due to this would be rather insignificant compared to the gain in other cities. In other words why worry about losing about 10 commerce in Uber when we will be gaining 100+ through other cities?

	30-09-2002 21:23									#14
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Shiber,

Sorens text is in the strategy forum in the thread titled War weariness carryover (http://apolyton.net/forums/forumdis...eld=lastpost&pe).

The formula could be : Build a marketplace when the increase in gold would exceed by (one) the upkeep cost.
Practically, we should aim at an excess of 2 because of the roundings.
If all eligible marketplaces cannot be build at the same time due to other priorities, this method makes possible to begin by the most beneficial.

	30-09-2002 21:29									#15
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Davout, what what Soren Johnson from firaxis said doesn't answer my question, of course what he said is taken into consideration, otherwise we wouldn't need any waiting period, and we could even shift to Rep in the middle of a war without the accumulated weariness being a problem. We know it exists in monarchy, and will become a problem after we overthrow the monarchy. Hopefully shiber will find out how much time exactly we have to wait untill the effect of the war weariness is low enough (or preferably, non existant) to allow us to safely become a Repbulic.

	30-09-2002 21:38									#16
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Actually, once the Persian "problem" is dealt with, we will have 4 controlled luxuries and 1 imported luxury. Hence all but Uber Isle is ready as soon as the Persian campaign is over. One possibility for Uber:making workers to hold pop down, road connect all cities, repatriate to mainland to clear jungle. Meanwhile get a Harbor in AGC. Then beg borrow steam whatever the requisite techs and go Republic.

	30-09-2002 21:42									#17
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Zeit,
The exact process of the reduction of WW is not known by us ; the only sure thing is that it does not desappear after a fix number of days. According to the experiences described by experienced players, it can be harmful even after 20 turns of peace.
Among the interesting things I learned in the above mentionned thread, is that all deaths in war increase the WW.

	30-09-2002 22:38									#18
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In most of my experience the turn the war ends the war weariness no longer effects the happiness of the people. So in my experiece the second we make peace with perisa war weariness no longer makes people unhappy. On the other hand if we go into war immediately it would blow up like a nuke, ie it only rears its head when in war. I have seen this many many times and alway switch all entertainers and lower luxuries immediately an unhappiness is no issue. The war wearniness is still present as a number somewhere(though it reduces significantly after 5 turns), BUT it doesn't make people unhappy UNLESS you go into war. That is why telling somebody to move out of your territory immediately after a war is bad,bad since you will go back to the full war weariness.
Aggie

Last edited by Aggie on 30-09-2002 at 22:44

	30-09-2002 23:23									#19
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So, according to Aggie, we should switch to Republic as soon as we have peace with America (or wipe them out completely), i guess this goes well with Shiber's 1st plan, which should be worked out, as i said, to something we can vote and agree upon.

	30-09-2002 23:31									#20
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As soon as we sign all peace treaties, WW will have no visible affects.

It will come back into play if we go to war again quickly, but a 1 turn American annexation would be too fast for war werrious to have any affect as we'd be back at peace before the turn ended.

Even a 2 or 3 turn American war can be dealt with with entertainers for the turns if we need them.

It is economic advantegous to switch if the additional commerce results in more gold than the support costs.

With a Golden Age at the same time, Market Places can be rush built where needed with the income to further boost it.

	30-09-2002 23:33									#21
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All in all, I have to agree with the general consensus of this thread... those of us in favor of switching to republic need to figure when the best time is and what *exactly* needs to be done to get there.

That said, I'm waiting on Reddawg's report about the economics of monarchy-vs-republic for our empire... that should hopefully (if he does, in fact, make such a report) clear up a lot of the confusion about the economic aspects of the switch and what needs to be done.

Regarding the war weariness and luxuries issues, my experience is consistent with Aggie's... I have played MANY MANY MANY wars as a republic (I generally war monger as a republic - not switching to democracy unless I have enough police stations) and have consistently found that the population suddenly bursts into "We Love the..." days if I forget to lower my luxuries or reduce entertainers when I end the war. If I immediately go back to war, the population immediately goes back into revolt. So I would say Aggie's right about that one. In other words... we can literally switch 1 turn after the war ends and not worry too much. The big question then is how bad the war weariness would be for the supposedly 1-turn war with America.

As for Uber Isle, I have to agree that all we need to do is use entertainers until we get Astronomy... no big loss. The extra trade gained on the mainland will MORE than make up for it. I've been arguing (in another thread) that we need to dramatically increase our number of workers... if we used Uber Isle for this purpose, all the better (what a happy coincidence)

The only nagging issue is the economic one. I'd like to see what Reddawg finds when he looks at whether the extra trade made in republic will make up for the extra expenses of having to pay for our military and other financial issues. If that issue makes republic better than monarchy, then I think it's a done deal. The only issue then is whether we go to republic after Persia or after America.

P.S. Anyone else notice the lag on poly been absolutely unbearable today? It's really odd... today is the only day I've had this problem, but the server is timing out so much I'm having trouble reading and posting before I lose the server again...

	01-10-2002 02:11									#22
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If a Republic would increase our income by 100 lpt, then it is worth it, since we have under 100 units currently, and we have to remember the greater growth of population that having the Pyramids will mean for our civ. On a grassland tile with road, thats 3 Lytons more for each point of population under a republic.

	01-10-2002 04:39									#23
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Note that the top post has been updated.
It's been a very good discussion so far. I'm still waiting to hear more people though.
Here is an interesting thread about war weariness.

	01-10-2002 05:02									#24
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So, how about posting a poll about this, Shiber, with "plan1" "plan2" and "non of the above", or you wish to wait for some kind of report regarding the benefits the tranisition?

	01-10-2002 14:36									#25
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I would personally prefer to let the discussion continue so that we can hear more suggestions (as well as definite information about war weariness).

	02-10-2002 09:20									#26
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As soon as the following is met:

1) Persian War is over.
2) All captured Cities are no longer Resisting. A resisting City has a better chance of flipping during Anarchy, even for part of a turn.

As soon as possible after that, IMHO.

E_T

	02-10-2002 11:47									#27
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joncnunn: you're absolutely right. You've also confirmed my thoughts regarding WW. I experienced the same effect (war weariness has no visible effect once peace is reached) myself numerous times.
I've also been browsing and searching through the Civ 3 forums and it seems that this is correct. Therefore, the war-related prerequisite for Republic should be 'no current wars' and 'no prolonged wars are planned'.

	02-10-2002 14:05									#28
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Don't know if you guys heard about the turnchat earlier tonight or not, but Washington was caputured by the Aztecs...

*IF* this means we go to war with America immediately (or ASAP), then we'll want to switch to republic after the wars with Persia and America are both done (as you said, when there are no wars and no long wars pending).

Just thought I'd give you an FYI

	02-10-2002 19:54									#29
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Yes, if we are going to war with America without a break, we need to delay our change to Republic until right after America is annexed and we are done fighting Persia. This may affect when we want our Golden Age as well.

I've just started to read up on the events.