01-10-2002 10:20									#61
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The same thing that was their weakness was their strength (the disunity you speak of).

Before the 1600s, Europe was a backwater of the world. But the disunity created a competitive urge, propelling them.

quote: The pressures of densely-populated urban life, continuing social complexity due to economic growth and the impetus of warfare would have spurred industrialization in other cultures.

Doubtfully. You forget that India and China were very unlike Europe. Their densely populated centers were MASSIVE. They had cities with a million inhabitants, which Europe would not have until the 1800s.

Also their respect for nature would have precluded any industrialization that would have involved destroying natural resources. Remember of all the empires that were colonized, only the Japanese adopted the European model of industrialization. Everywhere else, it was mostly resisted.

	01-10-2002 10:25									#62
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It wasn't so much the idea as it was the market. Supply and demand in the commodity of human labor power meant that it was necessary to turn to machine power, where as in both India and China, humans were so cheap there was no point in building expensive machines.

	01-10-2002 10:29									#63
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You've got that bass-ackwards, Imran. Until Peary forcibly opened up Japan it was the Asian country which had least adopted Western technology; and not out of any respect for nature, but out of respect for the warrior tradition.

China, the most thoroughly modified and irrigated land in the world in 1500 respected nature more than Europe? Bullshit.

Mesoamericans, practitioners of slash-and-burn horticulture and terracing respected nature?

The Caliphate, urbanised to a degree Europe could only dream of in 1500 respected nature?

Europe hit a flurry of development at just the right time, when technology fed industry which fed science etc. They crested a peak that had never been surpassed before, and rode the wave all the way down.

Christianity was as much or more of a cage than any other religion of the world. When men broke free of that cage they grew brave enough to peek at what the world looked like without preconceptions, and they did it at a time when the universe lay open to any with eyes to see and a mind to guide. The early renaissance was enough to drive the sum total of human knowledge to a high enough level to jump Europe to the next level. It has nothing to do with some rapaciousness peculiar to Christianity...

	01-10-2002 10:29									#64
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Well there are labor intensive machines .

Machines do require certain materials that do require people to rip up things to get to certain resources. They weren't going to engage in wholesale destruction of land, because their beliefs (religious and social) involved a oneness with nature (especially India with Hinduism).

	01-10-2002 10:30									#65
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India possibly...but not China, not the ME+north africa, and not Mesoamerica.

	01-10-2002 10:38									#66
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Actually it was the beliefs peculiar to Christianity that men existed apart and above from nature.

Irrigating land does not mean that there is a lack of respect for nature. The Chinese were very respectful of nature and kept it as much as they could.

Mesoamericans had to feed themselves and did so as best they could without destroying the land.

The Caliphate had two different threads running through them. The respect for nature vs. the Muslim belief that men were above nature (as in Christianity). They didn't go as far as Christians but were close, I'll admit.

People have to live somehow. That doesn't mean they were disrespectful of nature. The Europeans, on the other hand, didn't give a flying **** about nature at all. Didn't try to preserve anything.

And while the Japanese were least developed, when they were forcibly opened they industrialized amazingly quick didn't they? Did the Indians do that after Plassey? Did the Chinese do that after 'Chinese Gordon' made the Manchus submit to his will? No and no. They didn't adopt western industrialism, but tried to stick to their social mores as long as they could.

	01-10-2002 10:58									#67
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The Chinese did a lot of environmentally destructive things. They built a thousand mile canal.

The raping of nature that came as a result of industrialism wasn't a precurser to it. While Christianity did have a belief in supremacy of man over nature, they weren't really able to act upon it until the industrial age. Up until that point, much of Europe was still "unimproved." Chainces gave Euope power of nature. Power of nature didn't give Europe machines.

In fact, Euope had invented the steam engine in the Hellanistic period. It wasn't until they developed a practical use for it that industrialism changed the world.

What are new inventions almost always called? Labor saving devices, you can do more work with less people. In labor starved Europe, this is a necessity (which is the mother of invention). In labor glutted China, what's the point, even today?

	01-10-2002 11:22									#68
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I always thought it was the scientific or rational revolution or the Enlightenment or whatever you want to call it that led to Industrialization.

That didn't happen in non-European countries, mostly because of religious intolerance. In fact, most hard-line catholic European countries (like Spain or Ireland) weren't able to catch up with the most developed countries, even until today.

	01-10-2002 11:23									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui It may be odd, but it is also the truth.

Its dubious oppinion at best. False in many ways.

quote: It ain't just my position though. It's the position of the professor I had the most respect for at University. Oh, and btw, he's a biiiig leftist (in case you were wondering).

Big surprise. Its typical and ignorant as well. MANY cultures have destroyed the environment. Few cultures have some mystical ideas like you are proposing about harmony with nature. China certainly didn't. They had insustrial level iron and porcelin works on top of it. They just never developed mechanization plus they had at least one IDIOT emperor that squashed the burgeoning
Chinese sea trade.

Some non-christian cultures that did destroy their environmen that come to mind imediatly

Easter Island and many other pacific island groups

Anasazi in the American Southwest

Mayans

Various Sub-Saharan cultures that destroyed the land through overgrazing.

Many Eurasian cultures collapsed after their over farmed land failed to produce enough food. The only reason Egypt survived so long was the Nile as a source of new fertile soil on a nearly yearly basis.

Your professor was just propagandizing against the West and christianity in particular. Its utter rubbish. Industrialization is not about raping the environment and that claim about animals is ludicrous given the way many cultures practice animal sacrifice.

Idustrialization had nothing to do with the Spanish taking over most of the New World either.

	01-10-2002 11:28									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Before the 1600s, Europe was a backwater of the world. But the disunity created a competitive urge, propelling them.

Nonsense. Before the late 1500s maybe. Europe ended that when the Spaniards, Portugeuese, English and Dutch expanded their trade networks by sea. It was sea trade not industrialization that changed Europe into an economic dynamo.

	01-10-2002 11:33									#71
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The Anasazi didn't destroy their environment, the global climate changed. They disappeared at the same time that Europe's crops began to fail and the plague came. World wide things got bad anywhere that agriculture had been pushed to its limits right around the begining of the 14th Century.

	01-10-2002 11:56									#72
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara The Anasazi didn't destroy their environment, the global climate changed.

Both were involved. The Anasazi had allready used up all the timber in their area and the land was damaged by irrigation. There is still a hard alkaline layer under more recent soil all over the areas where the Anasazi were. This is a normal result of irrigation with the crap water available in the Southwest.

	01-10-2002 17:44									#73
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quote: Your professor was just propagandizing against the West and christianity in particular.

Seeing as he is fairly pro-Western, I doubt it.

As for overgrazing, if you don't know that that is going to cause problems (because the idea that grass will always be there), then it isn't really because you have no respect for nature, you just don't know any better.

quote: It was sea trade not industrialization that changed Europe into an economic dynamo.

Now you are being ignorant. The sea trade made Europe a little better, but they were still nothing to the Arabs, Chinese, and Indians. It wasn't until pre-Industrial economics that Europe shined vis-a-vis the East, which was MUCH more advanced until the 1700s.

	01-10-2002 18:07									#74
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Sea trading gave European nations the surplus capital to invest at home which in turn led to the deveopment of industry.

Also as both economies until the ind revolution were by definition pre industirla they were about the same level of development. China may have been richer due to sheer size however it wasn't due to having a more advanced or enlightened economy

	01-10-2002 18:09									#75
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double post

	01-10-2002 18:20									#76
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Imran-
As Ethelred said, there are many examples of other cultures and races destroying their environment. A perfect example are the Maori in New Zealand. Liberals get all dewy-eyed about their respect for nature, but the reality is they hunted the Moa and other native species to extinction. They could easily have just taken what they needed for food, but because the Moa was an easy target they would hunt it for sport.

	01-10-2002 19:50									#77
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double post

	01-10-2002 19:51									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui However, they probably never would have industrialized. It's peculiar to Europeans. Europeans are the only culture in the world which thought they were above nature. Everyone else wanted to live with nature and thus industrialization doesn't work in that mindset.

What a lame thesis -- and I don't care if it comes from a lefty professor.

First off, even though it's not an example of industrialization, this certainly shows how Amerindians of eastern North America changed, in respects towards nature:

When the fur trade increased in the 18th century, many Amerindian chiefdoms turned to killing thousands of beavers, rabbits, and deer for skin and fur.
This is the opposite of what you have stated -- it shows that Amerindians are capable of environmental destruction for economic gain, just as Europeans have been.

And the huge cities of various Amerindian civilizations, as well as that of early China shows urbanization in some areas, which also shows a disconnection with nature.

	01-10-2002 20:02									#79
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"Amerindian" ?

	01-10-2002 20:23									#80
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun And the huge cities of various Amerindian civilizations, as well as that of early China shows urbanization in some areas, which also shows a disconnection with nature.

That reminds me of another good example of disrespect for nature exhibited by non-whites. The construction of the pyramids in central america required the deforestation of many acres of land. We see them surrounded and overgrown by forest today, but when they were built there wouldnt have been a tree in sight.

	01-10-2002 20:23									#81
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand "Amerindian" ?

Whats that? A penis-head smiley?

	01-10-2002 20:46									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger Exactly... Europe's strength lay in its disunity, and the scientific/industrial revolution was in major part caused by the backlash against a thousand years of stagnation caused by scholasticism and dogmatism. Men like Bacon had the benefit of being able to look back and see how much casting off these shackles had helped...and they then went the rest of the way.

Frogger, this undoubtedly correct. The huge backlash that was the Protestant reformation also brought out intellectual curiosity in areas other than religion.

The development of a patent system also helped. Patents first began in Venice, spread to Germany (HRE) and then to England and from there to the United States. Industrialization follows the same pattern.

	01-10-2002 22:14									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui As for overgrazing, if you don't know that that is going to cause problems (because the idea that grass will always be there), then it isn't really because you have no respect for nature, you just don't know any better.

Thats part of the point. It doesn't matter about your intentions if you destroy the environment anyway.

quote: Now you are being ignorant. The sea trade made Europe a little better, but they were still nothing to the Arabs, Chinese, and Indians. It wasn't until pre-Industrial economics that Europe shined vis-a-vis the East, which was MUCH more advanced until the 1700s.

Well someone is being ignorant about sea trade. Isn't me.

Sea trade not only strengthened the European economy it damaged the Arab economy. Trade that had previously gone through the Silk Road and Ishtanbul after the Turks took Constantinople started to come direct to Europe by ship. The earliest manufacuring plant in England wasn't a texitile mill. It was for making blocks and pulleys for the new ships they were using then to decrease the number of sailors needed to handle a cargo ship.

	01-10-2002 22:17									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Whats that? A penis-head smiley?

Nah, Slowhand's just showing us he's an a-hole.

As for the sea-trade thing, one must remember that the Portugese actively destroyed Arab, Turksih, and Indian shipping in the Indian ocean. Portugese piracy gave them a monopoly on Indian ocean shipping. That's what spelled the end of the Ottoman Empire.

	01-10-2002 22:23									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Whats that? A penis-head smiley?

If Slowwhand was to offer me his penis or ass to play with, I will get as far away from him as possible.


Who knows what would happened had Amerindian chiefdoms of eastern North America found a more viable, environmentally sound way to capitalize on the fur trade with Europeans??

	01-10-2002 23:29									#86
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Nah, Slowhand's just showing us he's an a-hole. As for the sea-trade thing, one must remember that the Portugese actively destroyed Arab, Turksih, and Indian shipping in the Indian ocean. Portugese piracy gave them a monopoly on Indian ocean shipping. That's what spelled the end of the Ottoman Empire.

It is interesting how the worm turns. Once it was Arab piracy in the Medditerranean that help throw Europe back into a dark age after a minor comeback during the age of Charlemagne.

War, piracy and pestilence. The three pillars of anarchy.

	02-10-2002 00:25									#87
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A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. I will not let that stop me from advancing a theory.

Horses originated in North America and spread southward into South American and then into Asia by the ancient land bridge (Atlantis territory maybe )

Horses became extinct in the Americas due to a subsequent ice. I theorize that other forms of animals that were suitable to domesticate were also wiped out by that ice age. As a result American natives did not have a crucial resource at hand. The wheel was not invented or not utilized due to simply not having animals to pull wagons.

Therefore, development of the civilizations of the Americas was stunted by the effect of the ice age.

The fact that the Plains Indians quickly adapted to a wholy different form of life after the reintroduction of horses by the Spanish clearly shows that native Americans had the capability to evolve. Absent the effects of the ice age and the introduction of foreign disease into the Americas there is a high likelyhood that civilization would have advanced on a par with development elsewhere.

Thats the jimmytrick theory of how the west was won and the USA became the dominant people of the modern world.

	02-10-2002 01:04									#88
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jimmy, do you have a theory about brontosauruses too?

	02-10-2002 01:20									#89
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Me first.

The are very small at one end the get VERY BIG IN THE MIDDLE and then get small again at the other end.

	02-10-2002 01:28									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov jimmy, do you have a theory about brontosauruses too?

You dirty rotten threadjacker.