02-10-2002 01:30									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Ethelred Me first. The are very small at one end the get VERY BIG IN THE MIDDLE and then get small again at the other end.

We have a winner!

	02-10-2002 01:36									#92
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I wonder what theory Jimmy has about clean combs?

	02-10-2002 02:02									#93
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I use a brush.

	02-10-2002 04:21									#94
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Did you see Fear Factor last night?
Gentlemen, we hit a new low.
That one mouthy chick's gagometer was red-lining.

	02-10-2002 04:36									#95
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Oh yeah. Almost forgot.

	02-10-2002 04:37									#96
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quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick Horses became extinct in the Americas due to a subsequent ice. I theorize that other forms of animals that were suitable to domesticate were also wiped out by that ice age. As a result American natives did not have a crucial resource at hand. The wheel was not invented or not utilized due to simply not having animals to pull wagons.

An ice age that also would have affected Europe and Asia- and yet domestication of the Eurasian horse was vital to the expansion of several empires. I don't see an ice age killing off just the horse and not a large swathe of other creatures- besides which, the ice sheets/glaciers presumably wouldn't have covered the whole of the North American continent.

In any case, the Aztecs and other Mesoamerican cultures had 'wheel' calendars and wheeled toys, and pottery 'wheels'. They knew of the concept of the wheel, and yet had no beasts of burden to harness wheel power.

	02-10-2002 04:46									#97
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Molly, Correct me if I am wrong, but the first animal hitched to a cart was the Ox. Ned

	02-10-2002 05:17									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Molly, Correct me if I am wrong, but the first animal hitched to a cart was the Ox. Ned

From what I can recall of my studies, it was in the 4th millennium b.c. that oxen were first hitched to a plough/sledge, then almost at the same time, oxen and asses/onagers were being used for pulling wheeled ploughs/sledges, towards the end of the fourth millennium. This was in the Near East.

	02-10-2002 05:31									#99
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The Inca's had llamas, which could have pulled a cart.

	02-10-2002 05:46									#100
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I almost made note of that. WTG, Che.
And not just Incas.

	02-10-2002 05:52									#101
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Well, the Chimu and others came before the Inca, so we can roll them all into one. They also had alpacas, but I don't know how much use they'd be as beasts of burden.

I'm trying to imagine making mini-carts for chihuahuas.

	02-10-2002 05:54									#102
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Chihuahua. Bad little motor scooter ankle biters.
Pulling a cart. That's a funny picture.

	02-10-2002 06:02									#103
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My neighbers in Chicago had a chihuahua, named Killer. It was pronounced, KEE-ler. The cutest moment was when he tried to chase me, all barking and acting bad, and the little kids are running to stop him worried he'll hurt me.

	02-10-2002 06:06									#104
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Merle Haggard? You are now quoting Merle Haggard?
There you go, Che.

	02-10-2002 06:28									#105
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You guys are wrong about llamas. They are not suited for draft animals.

	02-10-2002 06:34									#106
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom An ice age that also would have affected Europe and Asia- and yet domestication of the Eurasian horse was vital to the expansion of several empires. I don't see an ice age killing off just the horse and not a large swathe of other creatures- besides which, the ice sheets/glaciers presumably wouldn't have covered the whole of the North American continent.

A large swath of other creature did die. They died at the same time that Clovis technology showed up, about 10,000 to 11,000 years ago.

quote: In any case, the Aztecs and other Mesoamerican cultures had 'wheel' calendars and wheeled toys, and pottery 'wheels'. They knew of the concept of the wheel, and yet had no beasts of burden to harness wheel power.

People pull carts else where. Its more likely that a lack of roads had a lot to do with it. Japan had nearly no wheeled transport prior the to Perry forcing Japan open and the reason was the state of roads and a lack of bridges.

	02-10-2002 06:37									#107
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Merle Haggard? You are now quoting Merle Haggard? There you go, Che.

You learn something new everyday. chegitz likes Country-Western music.

	02-10-2002 06:41									#108
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quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick You guys are wrong about llamas. They are not suited for draft animals.

Oh good. I get to bug Jimmy.



http://www.llamalove.com/llamasatwork.html



Woo-hoo!

	02-10-2002 06:47									#109
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Llamas are not suited for draft animals Slowhand. Pulling kids around in a little cart does not equate to plowing fields or pulling heavy wagons.

Try to think along with your sputtering.

	02-10-2002 06:49									#110
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And the Emperor banned the use of wheeled transport in Japan Ethel, IIRC.

	02-10-2002 07:05									#111
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Thats a pretty light rig in the picture, Slowhand. Looks a lot like a chariot setup for horses. Horses weren't used for heavy hauling untill the development of the horse collar sometime after the fall of the Roman Empire, possibly earlier in China. A strap at the base of the neck like that one shown limits the weight that can be pulled.

Then again I just a found a site with evidence of Roman horse and mule collars that look more efficent than what is usually claimed for them. Still ox carts were the main method of heavy road transport. A horses advantage over oxes is speed.

Link to Roman horse collar site
http://www.humanist.de/rome/harnessing/collar.html

I seriously doubt that a llama could pull anywhere near as much as a horse much less an ox. Plus bulk transport was often by ship which seems completely lacking in the New World, even in the Incan Empire which was strung along the Pacific Coast.

	02-10-2002 07:08									#112
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quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick And the Emperor banned the use of wheeled transport in Japan Ethel, IIRC.

I know that. It was impractical in any case because of the lack of adequate bridges. The lack of bridges was also intentional. Japan did have some coastal shipping unlike the New World.

	02-10-2002 07:08									#113
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quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick Llamas are not suited for draft animals Slowhand. Pulling kids around in a little cart does not equate to plowing fields or pulling heavy wagons. Try to think along with your sputtering.

how did you know he sputters

	02-10-2002 07:12									#114
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You're travelling through another dimension, a dimension not only of sight and sound but of mind; a journey into a wondrous land whose boundaries are that of imagination. That's the signpost up ahead--your next stop, the Twilight Zone!"

Let me submit for your approval, two people, a Communist yankee and a nationalist Texan, who agree. Where could this happen? The Twilight Zone!

	02-10-2002 07:12									#115
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quote: Originally posted by Ethelred People pull carts else where. Its more likely that a lack of roads had a lot to do with it. Japan had nearly no wheeled transport prior the to Perry forcing Japan open and the reason was the state of roads and a lack of bridges.

"...the state also undertook a number of government projects to develop the empire. These projects used labor drawn from conquered populations in the form of a special tax called the mita. The mita was a labor tax on male citizens of the empire, which required them to serve on work projects for a specific period of time each year. Entire cities were sometimes built to house the work forces who were fed by the state during their mita tenure. Bridges, temples, agricultural developments, roads, and government buildings were all built through this system of taxation.

The [Incan] empire was linked by a vast road network which ran along the coast, with smaller roads linking small towns and communities to the main thoroughfares. The construction of roads was a tradition which had begun before the Inca. Along the roads were way stations, maintained by towns and villages for the state, where official travelers and messengers could find lodging and food. Over the road traveled mita laborers, llama caravans carrying goods for state warehouses, and the imperial armies. Since wheeled vehicles were unknown in the Andes, the roads sometimes made steep, stepped ascents and descents along mountain ridges and through valleys. The road system linked an area from modern Ecuador with the northwest of Argentina. The roads centered on Cuzco and ran out to the four provinces of the empire. "

The Aztecs also had roads, paved with stone, and the Chacoan civilization also had the ability to survey roads, although their 'roads' seem to have been tied more strongly to spiritual needs.

On the subject of horse extinction- as I pointed out, Ice Ages affect Europe and Asia too- yet although other megafauna died out in Europe and Asia, the horse did not.

http://discoverseaz.com/History/Horse.html

	02-10-2002 07:31									#116
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You know, this is the first time my religious upbringing makes me feel I have a different opinion here. As hard as it is to believe, I do believe in some of the Mormon churches teachings.


According to the Book of Mormon, which most here would call a work of fiction, but that I feel has a ring of truth to it, the Amerindians at one time were highly advanced.
At least on par with Europe and the Med(not going to try to spell it out) Sea area.

Their problem came from long periods of war, which led to stagnation and barbarism, which they slowly were recovering from when Europeans landed.

That is my take, based on the Book of Mormon.

And I don't even consider myself a true mormon.

	02-10-2002 07:34									#117
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Actually, I think the Mayans wre just as advanced in all areas except weaponry in 1000 a.d. as the rest of the world. The Mayans were organized into city-states that grew rich on trade. the mayans didn't practice human sacrifice until the 900's when a warlike people migrated into the area from the Mexico City area (they were the teotuhucans, who lived in centeral Mexico before the Aztects) and brought thier Aztec-like culture with them. That was when the Chechen Itza was built.

	02-10-2002 07:38									#118
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Come on, they didn't even have the arch.

	02-10-2002 07:40									#119
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People's ideas re the level of development of native americans are often a bit absurd (either one way or the other).

Technology-wise, they were at the level of the civilisations of 1500 BC, not 1000 AD...

	02-10-2002 07:43									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger People's ideas re the level of development of native americans are often a bit absurd (either one way or the other). Technology-wise, they were at the level of the civilisations of 1500 BC, not 1000 AD...

Well, like I said my beliefs in this area are colored by my religious background.

I freely admit that.