30-09-2002 21:58									#1
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For those who don't or haven't bothered to use self destructing units they can be effective.

It is normally thought that the damage yielded from a self destructing unit is as follows:

hits = (weapon strength * reactor)/2 *100

This allows a fusion reactor powered unit with a fusion laser weapon to eliminate any fission based unit. Likewise it will elimate any and all adjacent natives.

Has anyone experimented with arty. It ocurrs to me that a reasonably high powered arty unit bomabarding units in the open and then self destructing could have the potential for eliminating massive stacks of units. So say you've got a chaos arty with fusion reactor, you then bomabrd and hope to inflict 20% damage to said stack of units. Self destruct the arty and take out the stack.

Anyone tried this?

	30-09-2002 22:14									#2
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I never used self-destruct as an offensive measure so I wouldn't know. The worst I ever done was explode a fusion foil probe team near a Believer vessel which I couldn't subvert And I didn't cause any damage... I also once self-destr. a subverted scout in enemy territory but that didn't cause any damage either...

So is that equasion from the game are have you calculated it? Either way, it will be most useful...

	30-09-2002 22:30									#3
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I can't take credit for the calculation. It belongs an intellectual property of the folks over at Civgaming.net

In any event self destruct of probe teams, formers and transports I am led to believe cause no damage as weapon strength is 0 (despite for mineral costing purposes I believe they are weapon = 4).

Also units in bases and I believe bunkers receive no damage from self destructs.

	30-09-2002 23:19									#4
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Seems to me that self-destructing is a tactic best used when either A) You're hopelessly outnumbered by a large amount of inferior units or B) You were planning on decommissioning a unit to begin with, but don't want to bother to haul it to a friendly base to recycle the minerals.

	30-09-2002 23:46									#5
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CEO,

For the most part you may be correct. But it is useful against factions like Miriam or Yang that do rely on numbers. My thought is that in this situation it might be helpful to use the arty and then self destruct.

OTOH tho self destruc has been used for a long time to great effect.

Consider it against a field of crawlers and your chopper is on its last legs (4 turns out). Simply bring your chopper to bear so that it is adjacent to as many crawlers/trawlers as possible and then light it off. In one fell swoop you can elimate up to 8 crawlers/trawlers as a coup de grace.

Consider it a gambit of use when under siege by a faction that has D:AP and you have yet to get it. THis allows you an opportunity to defend yourself for hopefully a few turns until you can get D:AP.

Consider insertion of a best weapon best reactor drop unit and then setting it off. Any unit in the open becomes fair game to this (realizing of course that orbital insertions are a very late game thing).

Finally consider using it when under worm rape situations and bringing an air unit into self destruct.

Many different situations that may cuase you to reconsider the usage of such a ploy.


Og

	01-10-2002 00:27									#6
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quote: Originally posted by CEO Aaron Seems to me that self-destructing is a tactic best used when either A) You're hopelessly outnumbered by a large amount of inferior units or B) You were planning on decommissioning a unit to begin with, but don't want to bother to haul it to a friendly base to recycle the minerals.

No It can actually be very effective even with relative tech parity when an invader is approaching with a stack of units with accompanying arty and air cover. Essentially the bigger the stack, the more effective it is.

	01-10-2002 01:18									#7
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One correction, Ogie. You couldn't get eight crawlers/trawlers that way...you would have no path to the center square. I think the most would be seven.

	01-10-2002 01:34									#8
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In a current game I used it well prior to fusion reactors and fusion weapons.

"Oh, no. There are 2 probes(both hurt) with 2 interceptors over them, and I have only one air superiority unit in range. " So I self destructed *3* missile noodles and 1 laser noodle. I used up 14 rows of minerals to kill 16 rows, and I saved my base from 2 probe actions.

Note that the formula above for self destruct damage is always rounded down. Thus a fission scout causes no damage. A fission gatling gun would cause only 2 damage.

Super stacks work great. But they *must* be accompanied by enough formers to build bunkers to protect them from self destruct.

Also to note, the formula for self destruct damage was know well before CGN was even a glimmer in someones eye. But kudos to CGN for making this type of information readily available to all smac gamers.

bc

	01-10-2002 02:12									#9
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quote: Originally posted by big_canuk A fission gatling gun would cause only 2 damage.

Sorry, maybe I'm getting something wrong, and I'm not more into testing to much lately (and I admit I almost never actually used self-destruct, exactly because I never wanted to put myself to study it thoroughly enough to be confident about when it would be convenient to use it.... aahhh....)

OgOg: hits = (weapon strength * reactor)/2 *100

fission gatling
hits = (5*1) / 2 * 100 =
=5/2 * 100
=2.5 * 100

let's round it down (before multiplying), as you say

= 2 * 100
= 200

That's just "a bit" different from 2
Unless you mean this is expressed in %, that is 200%, that is 2 units.

And what should it mean, that it would kill any two units from *each* adjacent stack to the self-destructing unit, no dice-roll?

sorry again, I read the article at CGN but could not follow the details offhand...
And never saw the issue discussed here before...

	01-10-2002 02:33									#10
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Does the damage you implicate on other units depend on your destructive unit's strength? Eg. Would a 20% of energy left Chaos Infantry have the same effect as a 100% energy unit?

	01-10-2002 02:35									#11
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Ahh Mario,

You of course are correct

Hits are expressed without the 100. The 100 was my own convetnion to express damage percent against fission/natives units only. In reality the hits are strictly the expression sans 100 multiplier. The rounding takes place on the hits number.

I suppose proper expression of the formula would then be:

Hits = Int(weapon * reactor)/2

Where max hits deleivered can not exceed 10*reactor.

I beleive Tau Ceti discovered that mega weapons such as singularity laser etc. will not allow damage greater than 10 hits/reactor level but instead the damage is capped at 10/reactor.

Last edited by Ogie Oglethorpe on 01-10-2002 at 02:44

	01-10-2002 02:38									#12
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Cyber,

Damage from self destruct of your unit is done regardless of health of your own unit. That is to say a 95% damaged 10-1-1*2 unit is just as effective as a fully healthy 10-1-1*2 unit.

Also damage is regardless of morale.

Og

	01-10-2002 02:54									#13
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quote: Originally posted by MariOne And what should it mean, that it would kill any two units from *each* adjacent stack to the self-destructing unit, no dice-roll? sorry again, I read the article at CGN but could not follow the details offhand... And never saw the issue discussed here before...

Damage imposed to adjacent units is dealt without combat dice rolls. All surrounding units are blasted with X hits of damage per the above calc.

So as an example say there is a stack of 10 needlejets that are fission reactor based. A single 10-1-1*2 infantry unit that self destructs next to that stack will eradicate the entire stack of 10 needlejets as each and every unit adjacent to the self destructing unit is damaged.

Likewise any combination of units that can succeed in detonating the requisiste damage points will eliminate that same stack. So combinations of (2) 8-1-1 and (1) 4-1-1 will result in the same effect.

The ability to resist teh detonation attack of a self destruct unit is mitigated only by

1) being in a base

2) being in a bunker

3) having enough hit points to survive a blast where
Fission reacotr provides 10 hps
fusion 20 hps
quantum 30 hps
singularity 40 hps (after appropraite patch)

Og

	01-10-2002 03:44									#14
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there is still something obscure to me as to how the damage is dealt and distributed between victims.

From posts here and at CGN, it would look like the fromula should read:

HitPoints damage inflicted = INT(W*R/2) * 10

{you must include the /2 *inside* the parenthesis, or the INT operator is moot }

From your examples I assume that "unused" destruct damage is carried over onto next units in the stack.
You say a "Fusion Fusion" unit (10-x-x*2) would destroy 10 Fission Jets.

From your formula, this makes hits = 10, and this would be enough to only kill ONE fission unit with 10 HPs.
Maybe your formula calculates "whole units".
For HitPoints, you should multiply by 10 as I wrote above.
In your example this would yield
HP=(W*R/2)*10=(10*2/2)*10=100HP
Each Fission Jet has 10HP, so the math would fit.

Does this mean that if I detonate a missile Fisson unit, HP inflicted = 30, and I have two Fission units stacks adjacent, one with 4 units and the other with 5 units, I'd kill 3 units from EACH/EVERY stack, leaving one unit alive (and unscathed) in the first stack, and 2 units alive in the 2nd?

What if the stacked units are different, in which order would the game pick them (as defender's armor apparently has no role in this)?
And what if I have units with different reactors inthe stack?
Say I have 1 Fusion and 3 Fission in the adjacent stack, and I detonate my 6-1-1*1.
I inflict 30 HP damage: will I take down 3 Fissions and leave the Fusion undisturbed, or will I take down 1 Fusion and 1 Fission, leaving 2 other Fissions standing?

And what if the defending stack is partially damaged?
Will the inflicted HP be consumed only as needed?
Detonating a Laser Fission ( (2*1 / 2)*10 = 10HP), can I take down two stacked units, if one has only 4HP and the other 6HP left?

Finally, are your OWN adjacent units immune from detonation damage? And your Pactmate's?

What's ther after "finally"?
j/k
allow one more language question, and forgive my dificulty with english.
You say
"the ability to resist... is mitigated" by being in a base/bunker
I understand this as if in a base/bunker the defender's resistance is made lower... which is the contrary of common sense...
Should I understand that *the attack* is mitigated, and inside a base/bunker defenders are "somewhat" more resistant to detonation attacks?
Or are they *totally* immune???

	01-10-2002 03:54									#15
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Dang, something is not quite coming together yet.


you say

quote: Hits = Int(weapon * reactor)/2 Where max hits deleivered can not exceed 10*reactor.

but then you say

quote: A single 10-1-1*2 infantry unit that self destructs next to that stack will eradicate the entire stack of 10 needlejets as each and every unit adjacent to the self destructing unit is damaged.

with your formula,
W=10
R=2
hits=10

Max damage =10*R=20

but wat are those 10 "hits"? If they are Hitpoints, the are not enought to kill 10 Jets as you say.

If, as I got it, the formula is instead

HP=int(W*R/2)*10

then your unit would inflict 100HP damage.
But then, as for big_canuck's max_damage limit, you would only be able to inflict 20HP dmage, enough to kill only TWO fission Jets and not the whole stack of 10...

Mind, there would be a difference of a scale of 10 between the 2 formulas, and this would make quite a difference in the effectiveness of self-destruction technique...

Please clarify.

	01-10-2002 04:03									#16
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Marione,

If I understand what Ogie is saying here:

1) Mitigate is not the word he should have used here, as bases and bunkers (as I understand it) completely protect units in them from any damage. They are proof against self destruct damage (or as you say provide immunity from such damage).

2) The calcualtion is quite simple when there are more than one targets adjacent to the self destructing unit. Use Ogies damage formula, and then apply the full damage to every adjacent unit. This is what makes the self destruct so overpowered.

	01-10-2002 04:21									#17
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quote: ...each and every unit adjacent to the self destructing unit is damaged.

FLASH!
sorry if it took me 3 posts to get it.
Were you attempting to explain me that...

...the calculated damage is individually inflicted to every adjacent unit, REGARDLESS OF STACKING ??????

So, I'd finally understand that your formula was correct, and not *10 HP factor was needed!

BTW, you counldn't choose a *worse* example, as a stack with exaclty TEN units, just like TEN are the hitpoints of one (fission) unit...

So, let's say that I have a stack with 17 units, and I detonate a Laser Fission units or a Scout Fusion one, yielding 1HP damage...
I would then inflict that single HP damage to each and every ajdacent unit, regardless how mant they are and how they're stacked.
I'd inflict 1 HP on every single unit of those 17, leaving 17 units with 1 HP less they had before...
Had the units been 99, I'd have inflicted 1 HP on every single of those 99 units....

According to this, as a Conventional payload is equiparated to a 12 weapon (or is the DW display wrong? I thought it was 18...), a Fusion Conventional missile would detonate with 12 HP damage, costing 6 rows to build, while a Tachyon Fusion infantry would detonate with the same damage, costing the half to build... (of course, it lacks the missile's delivery range...)

Did I finally got it right?
However, let someone who taught use of MS Office programs for a living for 10 years long tell you...
I might be dense, but you have to go a long way to learn to make things clear when you explain them...

	01-10-2002 04:21									#18
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what sikander said

Thats why I said earlier that the bigger the stack , the more effective this tactic is . . .

	01-10-2002 04:29									#19
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Well, thank you all for bearing with me!

	01-10-2002 05:01									#20
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This thread demonstrates that there are two classes of SMAC player - those who play MP and those who do not. I'm in the latter camp and have never had to understand how self-destruct works as I never face coordinated attacks.

	01-10-2002 07:08									#21
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quote: Originally posted by MariOne :However, let someone who taught use of MS Office programs for a living for 10 years long tell you... I might be dense, but you have to go a long way to learn to make things clear when you explain them...

Ahh grasshopper you finally reach for the pebble of knowledge and grasp it. LOL...

I never claimed clarity of thought or clarity of explanation

	01-10-2002 08:05									#22
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All this discussion of self destruct units and the equation that explains the amount of hits doled out to each and every adjacent unit is a bit off track.

My original question remains, Does anyone use self destructs and more to the point if doing so is there an opportunity to make them even more powerful by setting up an arty barrage to hopefully nick them enough so the ensuing self destructing detonation then takes out the entire stack?

Og

	01-10-2002 09:08									#23
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I don't use artillery all that much. When I do, I almost never put it adjacent to the enemy...rather defeats the point, I think.

But...a similar effect can be had with a rover or tank. If you can kill one unit in the stack and collateral damage the rest, self destruction might then destroy them all. Alternatively, an intial self-destruct to weaken the best defender, then a rover attack, trying to get the rest with collateral damage.(and maybe a second self-destruct?)

Problem with this approach is that you generally only do self-destruct when you're out-gunned and/or outnumbered, so having two units to throw away might be an unaffordable luxury.

	01-10-2002 10:24									#24
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Do fusion scouts cause 1 hitpoint lost, or must a self-destruct unit have at least some weapon to cause any damage?

bc

	01-10-2002 13:18									#25
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NOW that we all start from equal understanding basis ...
I would say (sepaking from theory and never having tested it):

b_c:
scouts DO HAVE some weapon!
they have strength 1 weapons (hand-weapons)
indeed scout patrols are NOT non-combat units (i.e., they ARE combat=weaponed units)
Thus from the formula with W=1 and R=2, HP=1

OgOg:
before Fusion, the best weapon you usually have is Chaos (you might go for UFT=Tachyon weapons, but I only saw buster go down that path once, usually you beeline for Fusion, and from there SuperLube>Orbital>AdvSF is at reach).
A Chaos Fission unit inflicts then only 4 detonation HPs damage.
Any means which will lower the enemy's health should provide your kamikaze(s) the margin to kill them instead of just hurting them.
By the time you have Fusion R, units are cheaper, and 10-strength weapons (Fusion Lasers) are not far away.
I can't recall offhand, but even if a step up in the Fusion units costs does indeed kick in above Chaos, why bother to detonate a Chaos Fusion unit (8HP inlficted), requiring some preventive 20% enemy HP softening, and not directly detonate a slightly more expensive 10-x-x*2 unit (10HP inflicted)?
Of course this is valid if you can plan it. I admit that if you have to deal with what you have available in a nick of time (after Fusion but before SuperLube, and/or due to logistic restraints), you'll have to do with what you have at hand....

Mongoose:
"outgunned" does not fully express what you yourself had made previously clear.
Detonation is most useful when due to technical restraints you cannot attack the enemy in the first place (leave alone gunpower ratio). E.g. you lack SAM ability against Jets.
And anyway, "outnumbered" does not only mean 1 vs many. If you have 3 units against 10, "throwing away" all the 3 of them "could" not be a luxury, but even convenient, especially if they'd be toasted anyway...

The discriminating points are:
- urgence of the damage you need to deal against the impending enemy threat
- expectation of future damage that unit could deal if surviving (and repeatedly attack again in next turns), vs one-off more widespread damage it could inflict by detonating

	01-10-2002 19:26									#26
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What is the most efficient unit for self destuct?

As MariO has indicated, post fusion it is the 10-x-x*2. Infantry is cheaper, but noodle has more range.

Prior to fusion, it is the ever versatile 4-1-10 noodle or chopper. Only costs 2 rows, and causes 2 damage. I can never have enough of these guys. The choppers are also very usefull for suicide/maping runs into enemy territory. If you have crawlers, you *better* have interceptors covering them.

bc

edit versitale --> versatile.

	01-10-2002 20:39									#27
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Post orbital insertion I would think a best weapon drop capable infantry would be the unit of choice. Infinite range and relatively cheap.

My thouhts on Arty were a window of opportunity with chaos weapons wherein a stack is damaged via the arty and then followed with either self destruct of thearty or similar 8-1-1 grunt unit. The arty if in standoff bombard mode would withstand two blasts from an intervening 8-1-1 and then would have to pull back to heal. That would be if memory serves 4 rows of mins wasted to destroy a given stack(assumuing you get the arty to deliver 20% damage). This would find applicability against interceptor covered stacks of land units where one does not yet have the means to deal with the air unit.

As previously stated, using this ploy you get the advantage of an "attack" at the extreme range of the unit. So assuming your scrambling infantry from a base along a road, you could rush infantry to the scene from three squares distant and detonate. This effectively adds another movement point to your forces which becomes huge for infantry.

If you use non elite ground transports and have elite infantry that translates into an effective attack/response range of 4 movement points. (just another shameless plug for ground transports ) 5 for elite transports (which are darned difficult to get)

	01-10-2002 21:16									#28
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A fission chopper (without CBA) has an effective self-destruct range of 39 tiles. 47 tiles for fusion reactor.

That's a long way! IF you can get there undetected.

	01-10-2002 22:33									#29
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Does workshop upgrading and detonation make sense?

Suppose you build a 1-1-1 drop shell. Drop it, move it, then upgrade at the workshop, and then detonate it.

Cost is 2-3 rows of mins(?) plus upgrade energy (100 + credits per shell unit)

Probably too expensive.

Hmmm

Also susceptible to air defenses preventing drops.

One thing that does make sense for detonation is nerve gas campaigning. Every so often I'll find a base that for some glitch within SMAC(X) has 20 or more air units, be they missiles or noodles. If you gas the base into oblivion with a chopper the remaining air units remain intact and are assumed to be in the air and can not be attacked by a conventional chopper. (you need an air superiority unit to get at them and realistically you won't likely be using SAM choppers in a deep air only offensive). One or two self destructs would more than wipe out the 20+ air units now hanging in the air over the smoking ruins of the base.

	01-10-2002 22:45									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Mongoose A fission chopper (without CBA) has an effective self-destruct range of 39 tiles. 47 tiles for fusion reactor. That's a long way! IF you can get there undetected.

Actually technically speaking the "attack" is delivered in a one square radius so effective attack range is 40 w/o CBA and 48 with fusion reactor.

Simply returning the favor of pointing out an otherwise missed detail (ala 8 crawlers LOL )

Og