30-09-2002 23:59									#1
	the great library Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

i'm playing on monarch difficulty (i know, i'm a wuss), and my entire strategy relies on building the great library. the other day, the stupid americans beat me to it by 18 turns. i think this might be the first time this ever happened. i quit the game in frustration and started a new one.

so the question - on these higher difficulty levels, what do you do if you can't build the great library? i want to move up to emperor, but i keep hearing these horror stories about sitting there with spearmen while everybody has modern armor, desperately trying to catch up to the AI for the whole game. i just can't picture that at ALL - by the time i reach the industrial era, i'm usually doing great and can choose the type of victory i want to pursue. i guess the only answer is to build up your treasury and income, try to get luxuries and then try to trade for/buy tech, huh. any other thoughts?

	01-10-2002 00:15									#2
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(1) On Monarch, if you're willing to micromanage, it is generally quite possible to out-tech the AI doing your own research. (If you're crowded, you may have to grab some territory from an AI or two to have enough cities to do it.)

(2) If you don't get the Great Library but the AI that does is nearby, taking it away from them can be an interesting option. (In one Emperor-level game, I even deliberately delayed an attack on Paris to give France time to finish the Great Library for me ).

(3) In some circles, beating techs out of the AIs - attacking, capturing some cities, and then making peace in return for some tech - is a popular strategy. (Warning: the more you fight a given AI, the longer it is likely to wait before engaging in peace talks.)

Nathan

	01-10-2002 01:03									#3
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Bella Hella,

First of all, you're not a wimp for playing Monarch level. I play Monarch level, and I'm not a wimp, damnit!

Second, the best way to make sure you get the GL is to use the Pyramids as a shieldholder and beeline for literature. Once you have lit, you can switch to the GL. It won't work every time, but it gives you a good shot.

Personally, if I build the GL it's usually via a great leader. I like to use #3 on nbarclay's list. Instead of investing hundreds of shields in the GL, I invest hundreds of shields in my armed forces, and unleash hell on my neighbors. That doesn't work every time either, of course.

-Arrian

	01-10-2002 01:23									#4
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What I like about the higher difficulty level is that the game is not a sure thing slam dunk with 10 hours of busy work needed to end the damn thing. Above Monarch, the AI has enough advantages to give you a real run for your money, even if you have a lead.

The option is to persue perfection on Monarch IMO. Once you get your personal technique ironed out, I bet you will beat Monarch virtually every time. So, the fun is to try to beat the game as thoroughly and rapidly as possible.

Note that I'm not that good at persuing perfection, so I make a virtue out of the competitiveness angle. To each his or her own is the right answer.

	01-10-2002 01:33									#5
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay ... (3) In some circles, beating techs out of the AIs - attacking, capturing some cities, and then making peace in return for some tech - is a popular strategy. (Warning: the more you fight a given AI, the longer it is likely to wait before engaging in peace talks.) Nathan

To my experience this is no longer a useful strategy after the 1.29 patch. They value their tech so high that they rather die than give it away. You have to beat them to the brink of death, and by then they seldom have anything useful to give you anyway.

If do an archer rush then perhaps you could do it, but I think that's kinda lame, like the zergling rush in Starcraft

	01-10-2002 01:45									#6
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Olaf,

I have no problem beating tech out of the AI using 1.29. Of course, I knock them down to 1 city before even trying to make peace, so they really don't have a choice in the matter.

-Arrian

	01-10-2002 02:27									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Olaf, I have no problem beating tech out of the AI using 1.29. Of course, I knock them down to 1 city before even trying to make peace, so they really don't have a choice in the matter. -Arrian

Do they still have something to give you?

	01-10-2002 03:33									#8
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It is a little harder post-1.29f, but yeah, beating tech out of the AI civs is alive and well.

Tech extortion... don't leave home without it.

	01-10-2002 03:37									#9
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No way! While it's impossible to defeat the AI in Deity (I remember losing the run to the Hanging Gardens by ONE turn- quite got to cry for the frustration ) you still can lead the tech ladder in the game in easier levels-even emperor level.

Build the damn capital at the first turn, then build a warrior- if you're lucky enough you'll be able to have a second city around 3000BC, otherwise build another warrior, then the settler- second city MUST be built not later than 2800 BC. Have the second city build a worker, then let it expand your empire. As soon as your capital has produced the third settler (1800-1600 BC) start building the Pyramids (later you'll switch to GL) - forget about the temple, it will takes you 8 turns at least, you can take care of citizens with warriors and putting 40% of money on entertainment. This will slow tech and expansion, but if you don't do that, forget about winning the game. If you're lucky enough you'll get it- usually other civs are able to build it around 700-800 BC, otherwise switch to Pyramids, that aren't that bad too.

Btw you better do that on the second or third city you build- at least you can switch to palace and hope to find another tech later, as Great Wall or Sun Tzu- that playing as scientific civ, huh

I remember losing the GL to the Greeks, then invading them- as soon as I got Athens I received up to 15 techs (!) and upgraded my horsemen to knights (have you a slightest idea of how hard is it to fight damn hoplites? I made ALL my cities produce them, while I was in the middle ages the damn Cleo was building Sistine )

	01-10-2002 15:40									#10
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Or play an expansionist civ, beeline to Monarchy, and let your scouts run around as a kind of mobile GL, tipping huts.

I play Monarchy too, but so rarely get the Library that I had stopped trying. In my last game, I got pipped to the Pyramids, bought Literature on the same turn for 180L, got the Library in about 6 goes and got 6-8 techs, plus fuedalism, eng, inv, theo (I'll take the Sistine, thanks) gunpowder rather surprisingly and of course, education (too good to last)

Monarchy is not for wimps!

	01-10-2002 20:02									#11
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LOL, thanks for making me feel better about playing on monarch. i realize it's not a "wussy" level, but i feel like i'm ready to move up, and i'm scared... (of course, i felt this way before moving from warlord to regent, too).

i just can't imagine going through a game without having the great library, but as you guys are saying, there are ways. the worst was last night, when some cruel civ decided to research education before i got the sweet techs i was waiting for. (an AI researching education before gunpowder? incontheivable!!)

so the bottom line is that i need to be a lot more aggressive in order to generate GLs and/or beat techs out of the AI, and/or take the city that has the great library.

i generally beeline directly for literature and immediately start the library. often i don't have the required tech to build the pyramids, or an AI builds them almost immediately, so i usually can't use it as a shieldholder. and of course the capital is usually the best city to build GWs and you can't shield-hold with a palace or FP.

quote: What I like about the higher difficulty level is that the game is not a sure thing slam dunk with 10 hours of busy work needed to end the damn thing. Above Monarch, the AI has enough advantages to give you a real run for your money, even if you have a lead. The option is to persue perfection on Monarch IMO. Once you get your personal technique ironed out, I bet you will beat Monarch virtually every time. So, the fun is to try to beat the game as thoroughly and rapidly as possible. Note that I'm not that good at persuing perfection, so I make a virtue out of the competitiveness angle. To each his or her own is the right answer.

agreed. i can't beat monarch EVERY time (without a good starting location), but i generally do pretty well, which is why i feel up for the challenge of a higher difficulty level. to be sure, there are many, many ways to play this game and have fun. i also plan to do some crappy starting location games and continue on with them. i tend to restart if i start in a desert or have an AI breathing down my neck from the beginning.

edit - duh, screwed up the "quote" tag

	02-10-2002 03:49									#12
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I have lost the GL by something like five turns before.

You are right you will need a large amount of money to catch up in tech and must persue a research path that no one else is taking, this will make trade easier. Try to be pacifist until you have a good sized military and then choose a nearby civ and start to take them over.

	02-10-2002 08:54									#13
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If you really want a sheild-holder, you can mod the game and create a "Pre-Build" city improvement that costs an absurd amount of sheilds and does nothing. Some would probably consider this cheating, in large part because the AI wouldn't know how to use it. (Or would they? We could use this modification to see if the AI knows how to pre-build. I doubt they do.)

	02-10-2002 21:01									#14
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BTW, I don't even try to build wonders on Emperor or above any more. I'd suggest that they are not cost effective, for the most part, if you are a small civ. And, if you have managed to become a large civ early in those higher levels, you are going to win anyway.

If you are thinking about moving to Emperor from Monarch, it might help to consider two things

1) There is no reason to get excited about being a couple of techs behind. You are much better at combat than the AI and only need to be reasonably close on the military tech.

This is because

2) Buying tech, especially an older tech, is very inexpensive relative to researching it

I actually value a pile of gold more highly than tech parity because it lets me control the diplomacy situation. Attack me and I'll bribe China to attack you.

If you lurk around in the background and wait for a good opportunity you will get your chance to win on higher levels. You just can't brute force the result quite as easily. Cunning and patience are valued more highly, which is why some great players don't play at higher levels.

	02-10-2002 23:19									#15
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to jshelr: Useless GW? Try and play on large map, controlling up to 60 cities, without:

-pyramids, to boost early growth;
-great library, allows you to turn the tech slider down to 0% and save LOTS of money;
-sistine and bach's, unhappy citizens+democracy= you know what;
the lighthouse, start on an island away from everyone and you'll never know when you'll have to fight stealths with your pikemen (it actually happened to me- not that I'm proud of it, huh )

and so on..

	02-10-2002 23:45									#16
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Good subject for debate. I've tried playing on huge maps on higher levels and just found it the same story dragged out over weeks instead of days.

I don't mean that GWs are useless. But.........

1) At higher levels you don't get them. The AI does.

2) At higher levels you are small, even on large maps if you include the suggested number of civs and unless you fight early. So, being small, GW's help less and the cost of happiness buildings in each city as substitutes for GWs adds up to less.

3) Most importantly in my book, at least, if you are spending resources to build GWs you can't fight early with as much power as if you focus on units and barracks. It's staggering to think about how many swordmen can you build / upgrade for the cost of the pyramids.

So, I conclude that warmongers should steal GWs and not build them. Even the GL costs too much, assuming you can get it, relative to the cost of beating the AI up to demand the techs up to education, IMO. As a side benefit, you get all that land.

I also think that you can't get 60 productive cities anyway. You can probably get 20 decent performers early enough to matter assiming you have a great FP placement. If you are evaluating the benefits of GWs, don't count the impact on huge numbers of cities, just the ones that are really cooking with gas.

	03-10-2002 01:48									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Datajack Franit to jshelr: Useless GW? Try and play on large map, controlling up to 60 cities, without: -pyramids, to boost early growth; -great library, allows you to turn the tech slider down to 0% and save LOTS of money; -sistine and bach's, unhappy citizens+democracy= you know what; the lighthouse, start on an island away from everyone and you'll never know when you'll have to fight stealths with your pikemen (it actually happened to me- not that I'm proud of it, huh ) and so on..

I suspect that by useless it is meant that it is useless to try and get most of them at EmpDeity and often even Monarch. I can get GL at Monarch and even Emp and maybe Sistine if I must. Often I have to let them go. The pyramids are of no value to me and I can't get them unless some extra ordinary event ocurrs. Below MOnarch, you can do what ever you wish.

	03-10-2002 03:51									#18
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So have a look at my current game and tell me if it's really impossible and useless building Wonders:

Attachment: franit of the germans.sav
This has been downloaded 3 time(s).

	04-10-2002 00:22									#19
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Well what can I say. In any event, I did not use the word never or impossible. I just said I often have to let them go and I don't want the pyramids, I would rather have units or useful structure in a few cities.I am not even saying that is the way one should play, only how I play. Anyway great job.

	04-10-2002 00:33									#20
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It was not until I moved up to Monarch that I actually bothered to build the GL! My real priority has always been the Sistine Chapel. There has only been one game recently when I have NOT had the SC and I was not happy about it - then again, neither were my citizens

I read about people building Pyramids early on but I find that I cannot really afford to devote a city to building a Wonder until I am fairly deep in the game. Given the aggressiveness of neighbors, particularly if they know that you do not have a strong military, I find that my best build path actually involves building barracks' early on. Am I unusual in this?

My games are usually:
initial growth, etc.
build spearmen and horsemen and find 1-2 conveniently placed neighbors to "adopt."
then I maintain and grow while planning for tech equality crossover some time around feudalism.

Carlos

	04-10-2002 00:56									#21
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Actually I have the huge advantage of playing as germans- free feudalism allows to start building Sun Tzu's very early, and selling it to the other civs it's a great boost to growth. I agree that building Pyramids can be a waste of time, but remember they never get obsolete.

-vmxa1, sorry for being rude I agree to some of your points btw

In my current game I was so damn lucky to find the persians and crush them before they could get the immortals- they surrendered and gave me 3 cities around 1500 BC, so if I did such a good job it was partially some luck- but not only

But I say, start building a wonder around 1500-1200 BC, and you will definitely get something- the Oracle at least (or a veeeeery expensive temple )

	04-10-2002 22:39									#22
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Datajack Franit , I am going to beg your paron right off here for what I am going to say. I just went back to the game discover it was played with RNG off. This makes everything suspect to me. I have no idea if or how it was used so forgive me for being concerned. I had no problem with anyone doing that, but it makes all result worthless. I can think of so many ways to up my outcome. At emp/deity you can get techs from huts that you would not have for a very long time. Battles can be fought endlessly until the desired outcome is obtained. This leads one to wonder if the map was not cooked. If you accomplished the outcome fair and square that is truely great and amazing to me and I am sorry to cast any doubts, if that is so, but you can see my eye brow go up when I see the RNG is not used. None of those pesky losing steaks or arties that miss all shots. Ironclads no longer sink DD or BB's.

	04-10-2002 23:17									#23
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How do you get Feudalism free with the Germans??

	04-10-2002 23:51									#24
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quote: Originally posted by punkbass2000 How do you get Feudalism free with the Germans??

The question was not addressed so I am not sure what it is in response to, so I will guess it was my point about getting tech. If so, I was talking about going to a hut and seeing what you get. If it is not a tech you can reload until you get a tech or whatever makes you happy, instead of all of those barbs or maps or deserted. If you do this to quite a few huts you find yourself off to make a wonder that you would not have had the tech for till much later. No need to trade a tech on contact you have all of theirs already. This slows them down as most players will trade the starting tech. You will not be getting techs form the next age. Again I am not saying this was done, only that what is the point of not using the saved RNG, if not to reload? Answer, none. Since the AI does not get to reload when a poor results pops up, it is an abuse. If one does it for fun, no sweat, if one does and then say look how good I did, is that still ok? I would then wonder if a map was maybe created and made favorable to the player? Maybe I am just too cynical.

	04-10-2002 23:58									#25
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Sorry, that was directed towards DataJack Franit, who wrote, "Actually I have the huge advantage of playing as germans- free feudalism allows to start building Sun Tzu's very early...". IN response to your comments, however, I must say that, AFAIK, one cannot get Middle Age techs via huts.

	05-10-2002 00:20									#26
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quote: Datajack Franit , I am going to beg your paron right off here for what I am going to say. I just went back to the game discover it was played with RNG off. This makes everything suspect to me. I have no idea if or how it was used so forgive me for being concerned. I had no problem with anyone doing that, but it makes all result worthless. I can think of so many ways to up my outcome. At emp/deity you can get techs from huts that you would not have for a very long time. Battles can be fought endlessly until the desired outcome is obtained. This leads one to wonder if the map was not cooked. If you accomplished the outcome fair and square that is truely great and amazing to me and I am sorry to cast any doubts, if that is so, but you can see my eye brow go up when I see the RNG is not used. None of those pesky losing steaks or arties that miss all shots. Ironclads no longer sink DD or BB's.

-wmxa1, no need to apologize for asking a very clever question! RNG is random seed preserve I guess? You're totally right in asking if I didn't used it to cheat in the game, so the only thing I can give you it's just my word. I despise cheating, so I always refused to re-load games to get easy fights- it's that I forgot to turn it on, only that. From my next game I'll remember to turn it on, k?

Btw the game was played with NO barbarians- no barbarian camps, no goody huts, no free techs (to me and to other civs, because thinking at Cleo getting 10 free techs using her damn chariot is NOT fair) nothing at all. The only way I could have cheated was being so damn lucky to capture Pasagardae with 3 warriors so early, that cleaned the whole southern continent and paved the road to victory. But I really can tell you I didn't use random seed to get advantages- just I didn't know what the hell it was when I started the game
I also always turn off auto-save and overwrite every savefile with the same name (you can see it's not 1800AD.sav, but just germans.sav)
It's my word against yours but I hope you can trust what I say - I wouldn't have lost so many cities in damn greek revolts, retire and look the game-record if you're wondering what the hell I'm talking about
For further questions just ask out! I'm not shy

-punkbass2000, germans are scientific and get Monotheism when entering Middle Ages- I just turned off science slider to 0% after getting the GL, turned it on to 100% as soon I got into the new epoch, burned all the saved gold to research Feudalism and started building Sun Tzu's- and losing it to the greeks

	05-10-2002 00:28									#27
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quote: I would then wonder if a map was maybe created and made favorable to the player?

No way- the map was created by the computer (I have better things to do than wasting my time in that way- I would have also denied myself coal, thanks to the romans who sold it to me :lol : )
The game settings were continents (but it looks more like a pangea? maybe I pressed the wrong button ) 4 billions, wet, warm, no barbs, emperor, diplomatic/spaceship victory off