01-10-2002 05:36									#1
	I have graduated to Monarch Got spare money?

and I am getting my butt kicked.

Regent is no longer a challenge, I win every game, so I started playing Monarch.

I am always the most powerful civ, with the most land, but I keep getting my cities culture flipped. I can't build improvements fast enough. If I stop building units, then I get invaded for being too weak. I sometimes flip their cities, but for the most part, I lose mine and it's always the one with iron. I can usually build only one wonder.

Monarching is hard.

Do any of you pros have any suggestions on how to improve my culture rating, without damaging my military? Any speed building tips?

	01-10-2002 06:10									#2
	Re: I have graduated to Monarch Get a bigger avatar today!

I won my first game on Regent but it took me three games to adapt to Monarch.

You need to work on your start most likely. Get those workers working and only on the tiles that are in use. Get enough cities. You might want to start a few games with no intention of finishing them just to work on your start.

Horsies are your friend. More important than iron in the early game. Only legions and hoplites can handle them till the Middle Ages and if you have enough horsies even they will go down. Especialy after you canter on over and cut the Romans iron supply or better yet take them out before they get started that way you won't have to worry about them getting a Golden Age. Best to just leave the Greeks alone if you can. Hoplites are no good on offense but if you go to war with the Greeks you are sure to launch their Golden Age.

Post a save or several of your early development. Its hard to tell you what to change without knowing what you are doing.

	01-10-2002 06:13									#3
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

There is lots of generic help here, but specific requires a sav posted. Otherwise it is hard to see what has been doen and what may be done. things like terrain improvements, city location. Civ traits and neighbors.

	01-10-2002 06:30									#4
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Thanks for the speedy replies.

I have attached a save where I am currently being invaded by the Chinese. I have already razed one city rather than allow them to have it. It was just west of Sevastopol. This time I was concentrating on culture, but because of that, I am militarily weak. If you can spot my faults, I would appreciate it.

Note: my workers are on auto, but that was started only a few turns ago.

Attachment: save.zip
This has been downloaded 5 time(s).

	01-10-2002 07:59									#5
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

MosesPresley, I have only given this a glance so... First question is did you get Education from someone or research it? I ask as it kills GL and the beakers can be used for getting Invention-GunPowder path.
IMO the tiles needed mines, instead of all the irregation. You would have more money now or better units and a increased chance to make a wonder. Why research on 40% making discovery in 40 turns? May as well go down to 10 or 0% until you beef up and end the war. You should get the spearmen to pikes ASAP. This will now mean moving some to a city with a barracks or making one or two barracks. I would want a barracks on the edge of my empire when I am at war to heal/upgrade. Of course you have way too few troops so the AI thinhs you are weak. At least your current enemies are not on top of you. You should have a feel for the game you are in to tell if ou have any real shot at those two wonders, but you should give up at least one and crank out troops and upgrades. A few knights here could rock. Pikemen are so much better than spearmen for defense. I know you don't have mney but the slider gave +22 per turn IIRC when I adjusted it. I would look at my workers and move them back to safer ground and have them make some mines and complete roads to the capitol. Roads to the capitol are high on my list at Monarch or higher. Oh the other question was why are you in Monarchy instead of republic? I guess it does not matter at this juncture.

Last edited by vmxa1 on 01-10-2002 at 09:01

	01-10-2002 08:39									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Ok, this is not too bad. 520Ad 2 knights, 7 pikes, 4 swords, 1 arch, 9 workers. All but the two farthest cities connected. China asked for peace, I said no. They sent knight, I moved a pikemen in a sent the knoght off with 1 HP, which I then killed with knight. Got a lib going, coll in captiol so citizens are fine, may reduce lux slider for gold to get all units upgraded. Then go hard on research and look to grab York with knights. China wanted cash for peace, no way. With units getting better and them taking loses, I want at least even up. With knights, a few barracks now and roads, they are not going to have much sucess attacking pikemen and the knights finishing off any wounded.

	01-10-2002 08:56									#7
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Yup got attacked by riders, close fight lost 1 pike 1 spear, send in Sword and Kignht to finish them off. Liz asked for peace and then I asked China and got it even up. Good thing as it could have been tough. Since I had no idea what anyone had and where there were before hand, I really was not sure of what I was up against. If given a little time now you can get shield production up and be back in the game.

	01-10-2002 09:01									#8
	Increase the size of your Attachments

vmxa1: good advice. Thank you.

I discovered Education via the GL. If I have the GL, I always go the engineering, invention, gunpowder route, after researching or trading for feudalism and chivalry.

I thought with the advanced govt's, that I could get away with irrigation, but I guess not.

Thanks again.

	01-10-2002 09:11									#9
	Tired of ads?

Yeah that is often how it goes, the AI gets right after ED if you have the GL.

	01-10-2002 09:31									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I'll weigh in with my standard advice that you need to focus on your early game play skills prior to 1000 BC even more than you currently have been.

How your game plays out will be set by how you exploits your starting position and capture as much territory and power as possible.

Here is the link to the article series that will lead you to better understand these choices:

Improving Your Opening Play Sequences

You have to wean your self off of worker automation until after you have command of the game position or until you have Democracy and Replaceable parts. You think that the military units are important to your future but in reality your workers control your destiny. Automation wastes 15-20% of your worker resources even under the best conditions.

Being in Monarchy is not even remotely a liablity depending on what strategy you follow. In many cases, Monarchy and Republic will net out to the same effects when you carry a reasonably large military. I have played many Emperor and Deity level games without ever leaving Monarchy.

I would echo some of the other comments about understanding the value of units on the horseman chain of development. In most cases, the mobility, upgrade and retreat abilities will translate into a better longterm game positions than the swordsman route. There are exceptions (hoplites and legionairies as enemies) but even these units can be dealt with in open terrain by mobile forces.

Here's a link to campaign play example with animated graphics and detailed combat events to show you the power of mobile retreat units instead of swordsmen:

Attacking against Japan with War Chariots and Horsemen

Really read the opening plays article. It will help you.

	01-10-2002 10:27									#11
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I haven't downloaded the .sav and so can't give specific advice.

I am a big proponent of early culture -- I believe that 1000 BC temples are worth their weight in gold but that it is harder to trace the long-term beenficial effects of early culture to specific build decisions.

With those caveats to my advice, I'd say don't worry too much about not being the strongest or most powerful in the early game. The defender in Civ 3 always has an advantage, and if an aggressive neighbor decides to come after you, a flexible defense can carry the day against a much stronger opponent. Adequate defense is important - dominating defense to the point that no city is ever in danger and unit losses should be infrequent, well, that is overkill. Spending too many shields in defense is sometimes a ruinous course of action - consider some early culture as a long-term investment.

Catt

	01-10-2002 15:29									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

You win or lose the game by your achievements in ancient ages. Build more cities ASAP. Use your workers to improve the tiles you want to use, and only them. Mine grasslands. Micromanage each city to work the right tiles. Connect all your cities by roads. Hook up lux and resources. Build at least a temple in each city. Then with a barracks, these are ready to pump out units. You can normally get both military and culture.

	01-10-2002 17:46									#13
	Remove this text

Olaf and I are on the opposite ends of the spectrum on size.

IMO the only cities that really count in the early game are the cities one ring out from your capital. These "never" flip if they are only three squares away from the capital -- and they are low corruption cities able to generate lots of ancient age military units. With a densely packed set of up to nine cities, you can proceed to be a warmonger without worry about culture flipping. You may lose outlying cities you've taken, but the solution is to take them back again. What you need is the power to build a large and steady stream of vet swords and horses to be delivered to your neighbor asap.

This is not to say that builders are wrong. I'm suggesting that warmongers who worry about building tend to dilute their power and end up in a mess. Either be a builder who's capable of defending yourself and seizing opportunities to join in gang ups when they become available, or concentrate solely on military. This becomes more and more true as you go up in levels, although some expert players can take a more balanced approach on Monarch and get away with it.

	01-10-2002 19:14									#14
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Catt With those caveats to my advice, I'd say don't worry too much about not being the strongest or most powerful in the early game. The defender in Civ 3 always has an advantage, and if an aggressive neighbor decides to come after you, a flexible defense can carry the day against a much stronger opponent. Adequate defense is important - dominating defense to the point that no city is ever in danger and unit losses should be infrequent, well, that is overkill. Spending too many shields in defense is sometimes a ruinous course of action - consider some early culture as a long-term investment.

That is exactly my opinion; patience and diplomacy.
I am a builder and I most possible avoid war (even when you are sure to win a war against your direct ennemy, be careful of possible military alliances). I concentrate on building and technologies, always trying to improve my financial and technological position. Hence I can improve my military position and when I am involved in a war, I try to sign military alliances with all the AI (giving money, tech, luxuries...).
For example, in my present game, I had the tiniest kingdom of the continent until MA (The other AI were : Russia, Greece, Germany, France, Egypt and Rome). When I won the game by space race my empire occupied half of the continent, France a third and Russia and Rome the rest. Now, in the year 2039, four cities out of about 50 are french on the continent (due to governor's deposition).

	01-10-2002 22:52									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Thanks everyone. I am putting your advice to good use. I think some more densely packed cities will go a long way as well as many of the other strategies listed here. For some reason, compulsion?, I keep trying to space all of the cities too far apart. It helped in Alpha Centauri, so it should translate well here.

Thanks again.

	01-10-2002 23:05									#16
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I like Catt's idea of early temples. I 100% agree, but isn't the build time prohibitive?

	01-10-2002 23:56									#17
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by MosesPresley I like Catt's idea of early temples. I 100% agree, but isn't the build time prohibitive?

Sometimes, especially for a non-religious civ. But again, I think of it in terms of return on investment. An early initial scout of the territory and neighbors will skew my early build priorities towards more or less military units -- the trade-off being cultural improvements. Effective early terrain improvements often means that even a non-religious civ can build a temple in 10 - 15 turns - time that is needed to grow the population back towards 3 people (and a settler) in any event. It is obviously much easier with a religious civ.

I'd describe myself as a buildmonger - essentially a builder at heart but unafraid to wage offensive war when circumstances warrant. I will often fight an ancient age war or two, and will usually fight a middle age war or two. The early culture really helps consolidate later war gains, because the chance of captured cities flipping back is greatly lessened. It took me a long time to appreciate (or, just wrongly believe ) the power of BC temples and libraries to the middle ages warmonger. Total civ culture is a powerful force for the entire game, and it almost always is a result of early focus on culture.

Catt