01-10-2002 17:35									#1
	True Confessions Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Do you agree that the custom of restarting if you don't like your initial map placement distorts our view of how good our game actually is?

I've noted that I've become worse and worse about this. At one point, when I didn't think I was hot stuff, I would keep a stiff upper lip and play from normal starting spots. Lately, if I don't have a cow and wheat, on a river, with a couple of lux nearby, I'll restart. More than that, if iron and horses are not conveniently close when their techs are discovered, it's back to the restart button. Given that behavior, it's hard to say I can really beat Emperor consistently and Deity once in a while.

So, from a personal point of view, I'm running a test. Ten games, standard map, all random on Monarch. No restarting, cheating, or other Enron-like behavior. If I can win nine, I get to go up. We will see. I bet it's harder to win from bad starting positions and resource deprivation outcomes than we suspect.

Anyone else feeling guilty??

	01-10-2002 17:42									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

No But I usually play on maps that have the starting positions laid out for each civ involved so the only way to change start position is to change civs.

	01-10-2002 18:14									#3
	Got spare money?

I did that for a while too, when I started playing mostly Emperor.

Now I look for just a decent start (river, grassland). It saves a lot of restarting time!!

I started a game last night with Arrian's Japanese start from the "best starting position ever" thread... Dear God, it doesn;t get much better.

	01-10-2002 18:41									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I've never done this before, but I have used cheats in other SP games and you have a point. For example I played GTA3 when it came out and about 2/3 of the way through I used a few cheats to get guy a couple missions then in the last couple missions I decided not to use cheats again and it gave me a much bigger feeling of accomplishment.

	01-10-2002 18:49									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I never restart at the beginning. I play till I realize that the situation is absolutely hopeless. At this point I retire, logging it in the high score table as a loss.

I don't consider things like a tundra/desert/jungle start or no iron in sight to be hopeless, just a challenge. I usually play at Monarch and by these standards I lose a lot more often than some claim to.

To me a restart = a loss.

	01-10-2002 18:54									#6
	Get a bigger avatar today!

As I've readily admitted before, I restart until I have a nice spot. I acknowledge that this obviously makes the game easier than playing out every start I get. But as some of you know, I don't play to just win. I play to totally dominate. A totally dominant civilization wouldn't start in the tundra wasteland, no would it? No way.

Do I feel guilty? Not at all. That's how I like to play the game. Given the goals I set for my civilization (ultimate power), I figure I NEED a cow or two on a river. To me, SVC is the CivIII equivalent of the ninth circle of hell.

Like that start, huh Theseus?

-Arrian

	01-10-2002 19:25									#7
	Increase Your PM Length

Just speculating -- Arrian was probably never exposed to Catholic nuns as a boy.

	01-10-2002 20:07									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Nope, no exposure to nuns as a boy (or ever). My family is protestant, and beyond that neither of my parents is at all religious.

There are plenty of things to feel guilty about before feeling guilty over how you like to play a computer game (like the amount of time you spend playing that computer game, for instance)

-Arrian

	01-10-2002 20:42									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

yes, yes, yes. jshelr, you have uncannily spoken from the deepest recesses of my guilty soul. i've come to the same conclusion as you - even if i don't get a good start, and even if i DON'T get the great library, i'm gonna keep truckin' and see if i can do it.

actually, i usually don't restart immediately. that nice grassland could be right around the corner. like waspstorm, i wait until i realize i'm screwed.

	01-10-2002 21:23									#10
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

playing on the high difficulty levels and starting on a mountain range isn't exactly conducive to a great game imho. so i reload. don't like me doing that? sue me!

i often tolerate bad starting positions, i.e. jungle continent but a few luxuries 30-50 squares away but i won't tolerate absurdly bad ones, i.e. mountains as far as the eye can see and no luxuries at all.

	01-10-2002 21:50									#11
	Inflate your Upload Space

I might restart from time to time, but not always to find a good spot, it depends on what kind of game i'm looking for.
If I (ever) play a deity game, I'll be sure to look for some cows and even a luxury.
If not I might restart until I finish on desert or in the middle of a tropical rainforest

	01-10-2002 23:39									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I'm not trying to sound high and mighty - but I pretty much play any random start I get. Some of my most exciting games have come from a challenging start, and I like the game to feel competitive until the end if possible.

I will restart if I get a random civ that I've played more than once recently, or overplayed a bit before (I have restarted a few recent games where I was assigned the Japanese -- but I've played so many Japanese games that I only go back occasionally for old times' sake).

I will also retire a game here and there -- for a while I refused to retire and played out every game, no matter how bleak the outlook. I think you can learn a lot by playing out a losing situation, but I don't always follow my own advice . I just recently "retired" (CTRL-SHFT-Q) in the 3000 BCs - in fairness, it would have been a loss the next turn, but I didn't want to go through the win/loss screens. Random game selector gave me Babylon in a great start position - on a river, a cattle, a wheat, and luxuries. Also a goody hut that would pop on the Palace culture expansion on turn 10. Built a warrior and garrisoned in the city. Building a second warrior. An exploring Japanese warrior shows up and pops the hut - exposing 3 barbarians. One barbarian kills my worker, the second barbarian kills my garrisoned warrior. The third barbarian pillages my production towards warrior number 2. Japanese warrior wanders off without ever facing the barbs. Before a new warrior can be built, 2 more Japanese warriors step up to the Palace gates . Sigh.

Catt

	02-10-2002 00:00									#13
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Ugh. Horrible, Catt.

But I usually will play till the end, no matter if I'm victorious or not. I never restart my games. Once I got a horrible start, in the middle of a barren island which, despite being big, was also the birthplace of Germans and Russians. I was the English. Man, it was funny to see how frantic they became when I was agonizing. Even the Aztecs came to the blood feast.

	02-10-2002 00:14									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I'm in the same camp. I've been pretty tempted to simply restart after a really bad position or environment, but I simply cannot convince myself to not buck up and take it. Diety or no, I'll give that Tundra-and-hill island a go and make the most of it. I've tried that and have been reduced to a second-rate power before but for the games I am able to pull it off, the victory is all the more sweet. That's just the way I see it.