01-10-2002 21:12									#1
	City Council: Libraries vs Markets Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I started this in large part due to the discussion I have seen.

First we must address what cities produce the most Commerce:


As posted by GhengisFarb:

1) Ghengistown - 18 tiles are river tiles (shares 2 with Timeline)

2) Macross City - 17 tiles are river tiles (shares 4 with Rheims)

3) Timeline - 16 tiles are river tiles (shares 2 with Ghengistown)

4) City on a Hill - 16 tiles are river tiles, many hill and mountain tiles

5) Rheims - 16 tiles are river tiles (shares 4 with Macross City)

6) Gaia - 11 tiles are river tiles, several dyes

7) Del Monte - 11 tiles are river tiles

Last edited by UnOrthOdOx on 01-10-2002 at 21:24

	01-10-2002 21:19									#2
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I think Ghengistown should build a library first, while the others build marketplaces first (Ghengistown doesn't have a huge population yet due to the massive jungle).

Then Ghengistown builds marketplace and university. The others build libraries then universities. As we start completing the universities we shoudl start edging the slider to a higher concentration on science and make the bulk of out gold from selling science.

In my games I have science maxed out on the minumum # of turns to completion, usually 4 turns at 40 to 60% science rate. I always get the techs first and keep the AI civs broke by selling my tech to all of them.

	01-10-2002 21:21									#3
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I usually start out with Libraries, but only because I have (the requisite techs) sooner. Once I can build either, marketplaces rule.

	01-10-2002 21:22									#4
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Markets do generate happiness. The 3rd and 4th luxury generate an additional happy face each, and the 5th luxury will generate two additional happy faces.
I reckon culture is very important. However, due to the religious nature of our civilization and due to the fact that we have built The Sistine Chapel, I estimate that we'll be building several cathedrals in the near future that will produce plenty of culture.

GhengisFarb: that's a very good point. I agree that techs will become a major source of income in the future. However, to research techs we need beakers and as I've shown above, when properly used, marketplaces can indirectly produce more beakers than libraries.
I propose this build queue for cities with a large commerce output: marketplace, library, bank, university.

Last edited by Shiber on 01-10-2002 at 21:28

	01-10-2002 21:48									#5
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The key to more techs is having a wealthier society that can afford more tech spending: simply put: we can never have too many lytons. Marketplaces and Banks are a must.

I think that maretplaces should come first, where we can, unless the culture output of the city matters (so it doesn't flip, or so that we gain more ground).

	01-10-2002 21:53									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber I propose this build queue for cities with a large commerce output: marketplace, library, bank, university.

I'd build Universities before banks.

	02-10-2002 04:04									#7
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Each town is different. Build as needed. Since temples are not needed to grow beyond 3 or 4 due to our luxuries, Let us build Libraries, Markets and Temples before worriying about the next step.

We are still pretty much in the first teir of improvements. We should build Banks Universities and Cathedrals in whatever order makes sense when we get to them.

	02-10-2002 04:12									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber I propose this build queue for cities with a large commerce output: marketplace, library, bank, university.

Agreed -- with one important caveat: CATHEDRALS (which are turbo-powered, because we have Sistine's, of course) (and cheap, because we're religious).
Was this already implied? If not, it should be a priority.

	02-10-2002 05:28									#9
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As said by Uno, we can gain a lot more lytons and thus research points if we built marketplace instead of libraries, where culture is not a major issue. Also marketplace will be even better when coupled by the Republic- even greater increase in taxes due to the bonuses and less corruption, and it will make the citizens happier with the luxuries they already have, so we also solve the lack of military police problem.
My vote is for Marketplaces before Libraries.

	02-10-2002 07:17									#10
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yes, usually I'd prioritize library due to additonal culture bonus, but it really doesn't make much sense to boost % of our almost non-existing science output right now. All improvements should therefore begin with marketplace first, unless culture is needed... but as Robber Baron points out, we can always get culture from religious buildings since our trait allows faster religious builds and the sistine really rewards our cities for having cathedrals.

	02-10-2002 07:35									#11
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With all the corruption, even markets do nothing. I plan on building more courthouses than markets. The libraries I have started are more for a combo of future science and culture than anything else, particularly as I would like to have at least 5 before we hit the golden age. We already have sistines, so all we need is WC victory or an industrial wonder and we are there. Many of the libraries I started last turn I switch over to cathedrals because of the corruption factor so the library would only have been a drain, at least the cathedrals provide happyness.

	02-10-2002 12:32									#12
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What I think is the location of the city tells me a lot about what to build there.

a) border cities
Each border city should have at least one if not two culture buildings to prevent flip and to cause neighbour to flip. (Temple, Library)
When first culture building is in place if corruption is bad build a courthouse.
After these two/three initial buildings the city is in pretty good shape to build anything needed.

b)inner cities
As inner cities have already been bordercities they have usually at least a temple. Now if corruption is not so bad go straight to lib and market. If corruption is bad court, lib, market.

Btw. How much do lib and cath produce culture/turn?

Last edited by Torkkeli on 02-10-2002 at 12:38

	02-10-2002 17:32									#13
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I just love everyone's argurments!

"We don't need to build libraries while our science rate is so low"

"We don't need to increase the science rate until we have a bunch of libraries"

So I take the only victory we're shooting for is conquest as we will never have libraries or an increased science rate?

	02-10-2002 19:10									#14
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Indeed, what Torkeli said is a logical compromise. We could really benefit from Marketplaces in large relatively close to the palace cities, like Gaia, for example. This will also increase happiness, giving us an extra of 2 happy faces from the 4 luxuries we have.
but the more corrupted cities need the Courthouses more, i agree with that.

	02-10-2002 19:11									#15
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quote: Originally posted by GodKing ... The libraries I have started are more for a combo of future science and culture than anything else, particularly as I would like to have at least 5 before we hit the golden age. ... Many of the libraries I started last turn I switch over to cathedrals because of the corruption factor so the library would only have been a drain, at least the cathedrals provide happyness.

Sounds like a good strategy. The science payoff from libraries is minimal not only because of our science slider being set at 0, but also due to corruption. So at this point the main benefit from libraries is cultural. But with cathedrals, we get the culture hit plus greatly improved happiness levels. Happiness leads to We Love the King Day, which is one of the best ways to combat corruption on the distant margins of our empire.

At current count, we have 8 cities with a population of at least 5, and only 2 cathedrals built (in Timeline and Macross).
The Almighty Banana demands more.

	02-10-2002 20:31									#16
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Initial Size limits should dictate what we should build. If a city can only grow to size 6 without an Aquaduct, then Librairies then Marketplaces first. If a city is on a river, Marketplace then Library. With enough Luxuries and marketplaces, you don't need the Cathedrals until size 7-9. Initial Science & Money are the most important if we want to be a dominate society.

Courthouses aren't needed except for the following reasons:
1) If a city is 15-18 or greater distance from Palace/FP, should have first.
2) 10-12 to 15-18, only need after both Marketplace/Libraries are both present.
3) below 10-12, Only after University/Bank is completed
4) Capital, just before or after building Factory (more for combatting waste than corruption). Or gust before moving the Palace.
These also depend on what the growth/production capabilities of a city, so this isn't a rigid rule of thumb, just a guideline.

E_T

	02-10-2002 22:17									#17
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Basicl, what E_T suggests is a more detailed and city-tailored program, and i think that's just what we need, where we have great commerce potential and we also need the extra happiness from luxuries, we kill two birds with one stone when building a marketplace, and IMO we only need a courthouse in the badly corrupted cities, as the commercial potential and happiness effect of the marketplace in the other cities exceeds the benefits of the courthouse.

	02-10-2002 22:46									#18
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quote: Originally posted by E_T With enough Luxuries and marketplaces, you don't need the Cathedrals until size 7-9. E_T

True, perhaps (though I'd set the threshold at 5-6). But at those more populous levels, the impact of Sistine'd cathedrals is dramatic. Compare Here It is (no cathedral, 7 population, 4 happy, 3 unhappy) with Macross (cathedral, 8 pop., 4 happy, 4 content, roughly equidistant from capital).

quote: Originally posted by E_T Initial Science & Money are the most important if we want to be a dominate society. E_T

Again, science is not a consideration for us right now. And WLTK is a great way to cut down on corruption which will make our cities better earners. Meanwhile, our cultural status will grow.

	02-10-2002 22:56									#19
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Plus (sorry about the double post), cathedrals are significantly cheaper than equivalent science or commerce improvements (because we're religious). More bang for the buck.

	03-10-2002 04:14									#20
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I do not think we should split our production between Marketplaces and Libraries. We should build either or to start with and not make it city specific. If some have Libraries and some marketplaces, then we loose what ever advantage we get from a slider change as increased tax doesn't effect the cites with libraries and increased sci doesn't help cities with markets.

I do, however that we should build culture improvements on border cities that we want to flip other cities with. In these cities we should build cathederals (big cult and happy).

IMHO it should be
Marketplace, Library, University, Cathedral, Bank
in every city.

	03-10-2002 04:21									#21
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quote: Originally posted by donegeal I do not think we should split our production between Marketplaces and Libraries. We should build either or to start with and not make it city specific. If some have Libraries and some marketplaces, then we loose what ever advantage we get from a slider change as increased tax doesn't effect the cites with libraries and increased sci doesn't help cities with markets.

Excellent point, donegeal. If we try to straddle, we miss the opportunity to optimize a particular strategy.

quote: Originally posted by donegeal IMHO it should be Marketplace, Library, University, Cathedral, Bank in every city.

I'd put Cathedral before library, at least. (With our slider set so low on science ..... well, by now I'm sounding reptitive.)

[edit: I messed up the quote thing.]

	03-10-2002 09:09									#22
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Both Marketplaces and Libraries are a MUST in every single city.

Marketplaces are of extreme importance because they boost our income and give extra happyness. Libraries are cheap and give a very powerfull culutural and science boost. It's Courthouses the ones we can ignore in cities where corruption loss in not enough to care about. Both Marketplaces and Libraries are Trade-fed improvements, so every city that is good for one is also good for the other. If a city isnt good for any of the two, it still needs them both.

Marketplaces should go before than Libraries because they help making other productions faster. So if we build marketplaces in every city and then libraries in every city we will finish the construction of both faster if we start with the marketplace first than if we start with the libraries first. This is because the marketplaces give a happyness bonus, alowing more citizens to work without the need of entertainers AND because it generates extra income that can be used to rush build the libraries and have our cities ready to build more military units sooner.

My suggestion of queue:
Courthouse (selective) -> Marketplace -> Aqueduct -> Library ->Cathedral.

In every city, and wait (ie. war) until banking to make a break (ie. 20 turn peace) to build banks in every city and universities in cities with low corruption.

This queue is ordered/sorted especially to finish the full list as fast as possible.

Last edited by XOR on 03-10-2002 at 09:21

	03-10-2002 09:29									#23
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When do we expect to research our own tech? Its abit early to decide this but industrial age would be approaching us soon and we want to start off the lead so that we can enjoy technological superiority with units.

	03-10-2002 09:42									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Calc II When do we expect to research our own tech? Its abit early to decide this but industrial age would be approaching us soon and we want to start off the lead so that we can enjoy technological superiority with units.

We can research our own tech once our cities are properly developed. In any case, we need a whole lot more cities than the AI because the AI can research things faster. In order for us to make a discovery we need to spend 125% the amount of sci of what the AI has to spend, if we discover it first we pay the full price and the AI gets it even cheaper.

The higher the difficulty level the bigger the AI's "builder" bonus. The only thing were we play on even terms is combat.

	03-10-2002 11:07									#25
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quote: Originally posted by donegeal I do not think we should split our production between Marketplaces and Libraries. We should build either or to start with and not make it city specific. If some have Libraries and some marketplaces, then we loose what ever advantage we get from a slider change as increased tax doesn't effect the cites with libraries and increased sci doesn't help cities with markets.

Good point.
But this is why I never use such a strategy. The cities are always in different stages of building no matter what you do. I prefer to develop the cities individually. This way the beakers and cash come from the cities which have already been developed and are near the capitol. So I don't have to think about if I set this slider here what will it do....

But this strategy is based on a minimal war strategy. I don't go banging everybody else right from the start but rely on culture and maybe, when neccessary, on the sword.

But hey, I'm a builder and proud of it!

	03-10-2002 19:59									#26
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quote: Originally posted by XOR Libraries are cheap and give a very powerfull culutural and science boost.

The science "boost" is minimal, given our low rate of research on the slider. (Down the road that will probably change, but for now it's a wasted build, with not insignificant upkeep costs.)
Cathedrals give us the culture, increase happiness (a lot, with the Chapel), and are substantially cheaper for us to build.

	03-10-2002 22:29									#27
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The discussion here is, Marketplaces Vs. Libraries, not Libraries against Cathedrals, and indeed, the sceince boost of libraries is minimal right now, and a better short term investment . We need to invest in the shorter term- when we can maximinze the bonus trade from the Republic and the beneifts of GA, which will probably occur soon enough- in the american annexation (about 4-8 turns), so building marketplace in the less corrupt and large cities, like Gaia (4gpt), and BHQ (2gpt) for example is of outmost importance and benefit, as these cities will grow quickly (are on river tiles) and provide us with greater income in the future, and also 4 extra happy faces (after we get the persian spice). This extra gold can be used to rush culture buildings and courthouses in border cities.
As for the culture buildings, Cathedral is my favorite, it's affect is awsome and is relatively cheap, and will probably help us get plenty of WLTK to fight waste in those far off cities.

	04-10-2002 07:09									#28
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Solution: Build both, build 'em all, build 'em now!

Primary Concerns: Courthouses, Marketplaces
Secondary Concerns: Libraries, Cathedrals, Universities
Tertiary Concerns: Banks
Not at all Concerns: Military Buildup

	26-10-2002 01:15									#29
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quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb As we start completing the universities we shoudl start edging the slider to a higher concentration on science and make the bulk of out gold from selling science. In my games I have science maxed out on the minumum # of turns to completion, usually 4 turns at 40 to 60% science rate. I always get the techs first and keep the AI civs broke by selling my tech to all of them.

We're halfway through the tech tree when are we going use the science slider? There are cities that are going to be corrupt enough to need a WLTKD to fight corruption, even after the Palace & FP are built. In those cities, we build courthouses and marketplaces first. So we can raise the science slider, we should build libraries. According to the poll and thread at:


http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=65452

You want ToE to get Hoover Dam, ToE is not many techs away, so we will need to raise the science rate soon.
like GhengisFarb, I've also used tech selling effectively,every tech we get first our sales will help us raise the science slider, until we get one every 4 turns. Then we can eigher stop selling them and coast, or rush build some corruption fighters and factories.

	26-10-2002 01:20									#30
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RealPoltic, IMHO, the only way we could be the first in the world to even a low AI priotiry tech like Democracy will be to raise the science rate as soon as Printing Press is discovered.