02-10-2002 18:27									#31
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by SpencerH I think the Dems do have an argument. Is it reasonable to deny voters a choice based on a law stating 51 vs 36 days? What about another number of days? IMO it depends on why the law states that number, whether its arbitrary or whether other voters will be disenfranchised with less than 51 days (someone mentioned the military ballots).

The reason it was set to that time was to strike a balance between giving the major parties the ability to change candidates due to a crises close to an election, and giving the state enough time to properly set up and run the election; as Lincoln just mentioned, military and other absentee ballots figure strongly into this.

	02-10-2002 18:30									#32
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat I take it the soluction consistent with Constitutional principles is to allow voters to select from one candidate only, but pro forma have two on the list, even though one is not in fact running?

MtG, should the parties then be given carte blanche to change candidates mid-election, because their candidate is losing? That's the precedent I see being set here.

	02-10-2002 18:49									#33
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Roland Has anyone a clue why it takes 51 days to get the military ballots ?

It probably doesn't take 51 days. The point is there has been time provided for printing etc. and there is also the matter of early voting. Once the line has been drawn in is unfair to those who do not have a chance to vote again for the new candidate or to change their vote.

The solution is simple at this late date. They need to have a write in campaign. The option is and was open to all.

	02-10-2002 18:56									#34
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk The reason it was set to that time was to strike a balance between giving the major parties the ability to change candidates due to a crises close to an election, and giving the state enough time to properly set up and run the election; as Lincoln just mentioned, military and other absentee ballots figure strongly into this.

Inconvenience to those running the election, and even to absentee voters, is not a good enough reason to choose arbitrary deadlines over the right to choose. There must be legal precedents for a candidate dropping out at a late date. What if Torricelli had died for example?

	02-10-2002 18:57									#35
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

There is a law for that as well but I don't have it handy.

	02-10-2002 19:01									#36
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat I take it the soluction consistent with Constitutional principles is to allow voters to select from one candidate only, but pro forma have two on the list, even though one is not in fact running?

It is the legally correct solution according to the guidelines laid forth by the wisemen in the NJ legistlature.

	02-10-2002 19:01									#37
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by SpencerH Inconvenience to those running the election, and even to absentee voters, is not a good enough reason to choose arbitrary deadlines over the right to choose. There must be legal precedents for a candidate dropping out at a late date. What if Torricelli had died for example?

But he didn't die. Nor was he arrested, kidnapped, lost at sea, or any other form of involuntary removal. He resigned voluntarily, because he couldn't win. As to what I think of that, see my reply to MtG.

	02-10-2002 19:08									#38
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

The only thing I care about is that you don't change the rules after the game has begun. There was a reason for the # of days selected. If you don't like it, try to work towards changing it for the next election. Don't try to change it because you've just figured out you're going to lose. Just recently (as mentioned) we had a candidate die. HIS NAME STAYED ON THE BALLOT. And he won.

51 days is not unreasonable. Think of those sailors on Subs at sea. It might take awhile to get them ballots and get them back.

If he wanted to drop out to help the party, he should have done it before. If it's just because he's being slapped around for something that he shouldn't have done, he deserves to lose. Welcome to Politics.

I don't see the people being denied a choice. They can still vote for this loser if they want. He was obviously chosen before.

	02-10-2002 19:11									#39
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Quote of the day:

10/2/02
This Californian notes:
When Torricelli was "severely admonished"...
...Democrats stood by him.

When Torricelli refused to resign from the Senate...
...Democrats supported his decision.

When Torricelli announced his candidacy...
...Democrats said, "He's the man!"

When Torricelli conducted fundraisers...
...Democrats willfully anted up.

ONLY WHEN IT BECAME CLEAR THAT TORRICELLI WOULD LOSE THE ELECTION...
...did Democrats urge him to resign.
So much for the "Party of Principle." ~by martin_fierro

	02-10-2002 19:17									#40
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

"The only thing I care about is that you don't change the rules after the game has begun."

Unless the rules are unconstitutional from the beginning.

But while the 51 days is quite long and the rule quite inflexible, I fail to see a reason for that.

What I don't understand is the event behind all that: "improper gifts he accepted from a contributor".

Wtf ?

	02-10-2002 19:26									#42
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Roland Unless the rules are unconstitutional from the beginning. But while the 51 days is quite long and the rule quite inflexible, I fail to see a reason for that.

I doubt they'll find it unconstitutional. And I find it funny, since if they didn't want to drop the bum, no one would be questioning the constitutional aspect here. And is anyone really that stupid to think that's the real issue here?

51 days might seem long, but now that campaigns seem to be starting 2 years prior, 51 days is starting to look like real last minute.

	02-10-2002 19:30									#43
	Get a bigger avatar today!

"And is anyone really that stupid to think that's the real issue here?"

For politicians the constitution is a political tool. Is that your point, Captain Obvious ?

"but now that campaigns seem to be starting 2 years prior"

True but the hot phase is usually 30-60 days, is it not ?

	02-10-2002 19:32									#44
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

The idea that a party has a right to switch candidate late in the race just because their nomiee is losing is preposterous. Emergencyb Ballot replacement is for when a candidate becomes non qulified to serve, such as bding dead, covicted of treason, etc.

	02-10-2002 19:39									#45
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Roland For politicians the constitution is a political tool. Is that your point, Captain Obvious ?

If you read my post carefully, my point was that I just find it funny. Seeing people pretending to argue the constitutionality of it when they really don't care about the constituionality of it. They're not fooling anybody, but they posture like they are. I find it hilarious. Because it's so OBVIOUS

quote: Originally posted by Roland "but now that campaigns seem to be starting 2 years prior" True but the hot phase is usually 30-60 days, is it not ?

Only close elections are hot in the last 60 days. MOST elections are pretty much decided well before then. It's just that more press is given to the close ones so they are the main focus. (more from captain Obvious )

	02-10-2002 19:41									#46
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

You can watch the sniveling here (TV of New Jersey SC oral hearings):

http://www.njn.net/

	02-10-2002 19:59									#47
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Sometimes I really start to think it might be a little bit of fun being a lawyer in the US...

Admit it, the common law calls out to you . That civil law is getting old .

--

Ah, have to love it when the home state gets on national news. The Torch was scum and I'm glad he left, but he only did it because he was going to lose. He wasn't as teflon as he thought.

	02-10-2002 20:01									#48
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

"Admit it, the common law calls out to you . That civil law is getting old ."

Come on, it's just 2500 years old. It's still a baby...

	02-10-2002 20:03									#49
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

And apart from tort law, most fun seems to be statute-based anyway....

	02-10-2002 20:06									#50
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Why shouldnt they switch if they're losing? Clearly this action goes against the law, the only question is whether its constitutional to deprive the voters of a choice of candidates. Surely, the knowledgeable voters of NJ will be able to decide who they prefer to have represent them based upon the merits of the candidates not upon how long they've been campaigning.

	02-10-2002 20:12									#51
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

But Tort law is the most fun!!

	02-10-2002 20:15									#52
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Probably.

I need to do public procurement law here. That one's hilarious. Looking forward to it.

	02-10-2002 20:21									#53
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Hey, after reading an except of Jerry Falwell v. Hustler in the first week of law school, I'm hooked on torts .

	02-10-2002 20:27									#54
	Support Apolyton

Don't know that one. But I broke down laughing when one of our news mags here published in all seriousness a babelfish translation of the Starr report. It hurt, trust me, it really hurt...

	02-10-2002 20:29									#55
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Oh lord.

Where is that Counterglow nervous smily when you really need it?

	02-10-2002 20:37									#56
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I still have it somewhere I think. As if the thing weren't bizarre enough on its own....

	02-10-2002 20:40									#57
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Oh lord. Where is that Counterglow nervous smily when you really need it?

	02-10-2002 21:11									#58
	Support Apolyton

From what I have heard from the oral arguments it seems like the NJSC will vote in favor of the Dems.

	02-10-2002 21:18									#59
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Roland Unless the rules are unconstitutional from the beginning.

You've finally discovered the "We think we're going to loose, so we will choose someone else" clause in the Constitution.

	02-10-2002 21:37									#60
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Lincoln From what I have heard from the oral arguments it seems like the NJSC will vote in favor of the Dems.

If they do, then this really will begin to resemble the mess in Florida, with state judges overruling the legislature on a strictly procedural matter.