02-10-2002 06:48									#1
	City Council: names of cities Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Room for discussion of how to come up with names of cities (and indirectly with provinces).

In first term (4 months ago) a vote was held that made the rule that each elected official gets to name a city, choosen by a randomizer program the then president, Trip, had. In second term, I am not sure how city naming was handled. In third term, I was elected to CP and continued with the 1st term method, only I pulled names out of two hats (one the city, second the ministers name....). Late in 3rd term, I ran out of minister names, so I wated til 4th term. Unfortunately, by this point many of the ministers (such as myself) had already named cities. I posted a thread asking all ministers and judges (who were not included before) to post thier city names. I got a large responce from the public at large. As our cities outnumbered event the "official" count, I picked several that I felt were neutral assuming that 5+ terms would make up for the lack and change them or just what not.

Unfortunately, I am not sure what occured, and I hold no animocity to anybody as in my opinion this is NOT AN ISSUE, the names were not used and several others were used, such as "bacteria", "Port of Malignance", "Contaginon (spelled wrong I think)", "Insane City" and "Boom town". These names are the worst I have seen yet in this game, and there are some bad one all right. IMO these names are not acceptable. I do not per say care how they are choosen, but these appear to be poorly thought out, and have no relevance or significance. Just being silly (well, ok, it is a game).

So, I liked the idea of ministers naming things as it does show a mark of "I was here, I did something, and as a result I get to name something." It is almost the only benifit our ministers get as compensation for all their time and effort. And let me tell you, in several jobs it amounts to a lot of time and effort.

So. I would like people to talk about ideas for how to name cities, and ideas for renaming those cities who people feel the existing names are innapropriate (such as i do with those above). DO NOT POST NAMES. THIS IS NOT A THREAD FOR NAMES. IF YOU HAVE A NAME YOU WANT TO USE, START ANOTHER THREAD PLEASE. I would advise you to wait with your name until a method has been worked out here first however.

Also, lets talk about how the CC can add this into the new constitution, or if it should be added. Who's authority is it to name cities? It kinda fell on the City Planners office by default (it does make sence), but there is nothing written that says that the City Planner make the orders to change city names.

	02-10-2002 06:58									#2
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GodKing,
IIRC from last chat, OPD needed a few emergency names. I'm not sure if these were meant to be temporary or not, but he wasn't trying to set policy or anything -- for whatever reason, he didn't realize that you had a list of names out there, and he was begging everyone to come up with them. I tried and couldn't come up with one, and I think most other people had similar troubles (it's hard without a lot of thought), so I think some had to just be taken after a while so the game could move on.

As for the CC side of this, I'll listen to any input on if this should be included in the constitution at all, if the Constitution should be specific about it at all, or what you think the Constitutional Convention should decide in general. I haven't thought about it much, and I'm always willing to listen to thoughts from the public.

Just a quick informational post... sorry I couldn't add much to the discussion now. I may have something more insightful later.

-- adaMada

	02-10-2002 07:08									#3
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lol I'ts only now that you mention it that I realize that the new names really do suck.

There wasn't much support for the names that teh cities should have been called, such as MCdonalds, and I always thought it a good idea to have the people present come up with a name for new cities. Although there were alot of cities and to name and I just threw it open to everyone present to name a city when there should have been some knid of discourse over each name.

Perhaps the bad name cities could be renamed a-f or whatever and then each chat gets to rename a city?

	02-10-2002 07:17									#4
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I understand why OPD named the cities the way he did, as he needed names and asked those in the turnchat for suggestions. I think everything would be solved if we simply had a method to rename a city if it has a name the people dislike.

That is why I started the thread today to see if we could rename BFM. In it I suggested we have a method for allowing cities to be renamed. Perhaps a 2/3 vote in favor of the proposed replacement name. I would say that a name replacement would have to have the support of at least 5 citizens before it would be officially offered as a poll vote. Thus one person couldn't go around causing all the names to change.

	02-10-2002 07:28									#5
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Please. I do not want to blame anybody for anything. There are a couple of issues:

How to name (rename) new cities?

How to change names of cities (if we should?)? Even those named by ministers long ago?

What should be law, if anything, for our CC to look over?

About those cities that were not named by ministers (as had been previously voted, long long ago) what, if anything, should we do with them?

	02-10-2002 07:36									#6
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Why not leave the default names? Why was a new name needed IMMEDIATELY?


Anyway, on topic.

New cities should be polled on. We are going to hit a limit sooner or later, it is not all that big of a deal. We could even hold a suggestion thread with a list of suggestion for each term, vote on them and use them in order of popularity on the poll.

Old cities...
As much as I dislike some of the names, I feel it woud be disrespectful to change them now.

CC should look at whatevrwe decide for new cities as a suggestion. Perhaps they have a better idea, but I would sure hope they make it known here as well.

The Cities for this term should all be looked at and polled upon whether to change or not IMO. If we wish to continue the order of things from the past, so be it. I do not like the Ministers naming things personally, which is why I declined to do such in my term and voted on naming my city. The name was even decided in time to be changed as soon as we got the city...

	02-10-2002 07:50									#7
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I agree with Unortho's proposal on polling for all new cities.

As for old cities, I honestly don't have a problem with Ghengis's idea of having a minimum number of people to petition to change name and a 2/3 vote in an official poll to actually change one - including ANY name (short of Apolyton - which is simply sacred) in the empire.

I mean, enough RL empires have changed the names of their cities for various reasons (mostly political) that I don't see why we couldn't if a bunch of us in the industrial age were wondering what everyone (including some of yourselves/ourselves) were smoking back in the early middle age (probably bananabis )

So that's my 2 [insert lowest denomination of currency here]

	02-10-2002 07:51									#8
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LOL, I love Unortho's new Avatar

	02-10-2002 08:20									#9
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quote: Originally posted by GodKing Please. I do not want to blame anybody for anything. There are a couple of issues:

Always a good policy . I'll do my best to answer, but I'm afraid I don't have any brillent ideas.

quote: How to name (rename) new cities?

I think all ministers, justices, etc. should still get a say. It lets them leave their mark, and I think it's a really cool way of doing things. How to name extras, I don't kow.

quote: How to change names of cities (if we should?)? Even those named by ministers long ago?

I think that any city named by a minister (even if some think the names are lousy -- I've no taste, so I like them all once I get used to them ) should be kept out of respect for that minister.

quote: What should be law, if anything, for our CC to look over?

quote: About those cities that were not named by ministers (as had been previously voted, long long ago) what, if anything, should we do with them?

Do any have names that are in standard use yet? (Commonly used, well known, the name of a JungleBall team, etc). If so, the name should stand. If this category includes only new cities, then we should either change or keep them as we feel fit, but soon, so we don't find ourselves starting to use the names. (Once people start to use them a lot, they're beyond change in my opinion).

Just a few thoughts...

-- adaMada

	02-10-2002 08:59									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos LOL, I love Unortho's new Avatar

So do I, Thank you Aro!!!

	02-10-2002 13:53									#11
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ada I disagree... I don't see why we can't have a city like a St. Petersburg/Petrograd/Leningrad or a Constantinople/Instanbul or myriad other examples...

	02-10-2002 17:37									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos I agree with Unortho's proposal on polling for all new cities. As for old cities, I honestly don't have a problem with Ghengis's idea of having a minimum number of people to petition to change name and a 2/3 vote in an official poll to actually change one - including ANY name (short of Apolyton - which is simply sacred) in the empire. I mean, enough RL empires have changed the names of their cities for various reasons (mostly political) that I don't see why we couldn't if a bunch of us in the industrial age were wondering what everyone (including some of yourselves/ourselves) were smoking back in the early middle age (probably bananabis ) So that's my 2 [insert lowest denomination of currency here]

Agree, if a city name changes we can make up a story about why.

quote: Originally posted by Arnelos LOL, I love Unortho's new Avatar

Ditto.

	04-10-2002 03:28									#13
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I don't want this to die. ( *BUMP* )

Please keep discussing this. Rest assured that I am thinking of ways to impliment this so for next term it can be used.

In the mean time, does any body object if I order all cities that have non minister names to be changed to CIty 1, City 2, and so forth?

	04-10-2002 03:30									#14
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quote: Originally posted by GodKing I don't want this to die. ( *BUMP* ) Please keep discussing this. Rest assured that I am thinking of ways to impliment this so for next term it can be used. In the mean time, does any body object if I order all cities that have non minister names to be changed to CIty 1, City 2, and so forth?

If you do that, please move Ghengistown back to City on the Hill's location. We only moved it because Gepap wanted to name a city on a hill.

	04-10-2002 03:34									#15
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GF - Ok. Unless you would want another city, just name one of the diseases......

	04-10-2002 03:50									#16
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quote: Originally posted by GodKing GF - Ok. Unless you would want another city, just name one of the diseases......

I liked Tyre.

Since you have a lot of work and my position has very little, I'd suggest the following system for city names:

Leave the city named whatever the computer automatically names it.

The Minister of Imperial Exapasion starts a thread with images showing the cities needing names.

Any minister who hasn't named a city gets to name one of the unnamed cities. Everyone is allowed to make suggestions for the rest. After a day or so of suggestions the MoIE opens a poll for each unnamed city with the suggestions and we vote on the city's name.

How does that sound?

	04-10-2002 04:05									#17
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That sounds real good to me. Only to help avoid confusion in orders, the new names have to be assigned at the end of chats (I have been meening to switch to this, but keep forgetting when doing my orders).

BTW, it is my understanding that the IE position will become a deputy of the City Planning/Domestic position with the new code of laws. This will be a good way to keep the IE position from going the way of the Dodo bird.

	04-10-2002 04:22									#18
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quote: Originally posted by GodKing That sounds real good to me. Only to help avoid confusion in orders, the new names have to be assigned at the end of chats (I have been meening to switch to this, but keep forgetting when doing my orders). BTW, it is my understanding that the IE position will become a deputy of the City Planning/Domestic position with the new code of laws. This will be a good way to keep the IE position from going the way of the Dodo bird.

Tell me which towns aren't minister names and I'll start a thread for name suggestions.

	04-10-2002 05:44									#19
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quote: Originally posted by GodKing BTW, it is my understanding that the IE position will become a deputy of the City Planning/Domestic position with the new code of laws. This will be a good way to keep the IE position from going the way of the Dodo bird.

Just thought I'd point out that this isn't guarenteed at all, though is a posibility and any input will obviously be considered -- the position could disapear (with the power reallocated). As such, I might not pass any amendments based on this idea until the new constitution's out, though any system for the time until then would probably be fine.

Just a quick point.

-- adaMada

	04-10-2002 05:46									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos ada I disagree... I don't see why we can't have a city like a St. Petersburg/Petrograd/Leningrad or a Constantinople/Instanbul or myriad other examples...

Sorry for not getting back to you on this sooner...

I have no objection to any of those city names, but I think that Ministers should get to decide first (I think it's just a nice system), with other fun citynames (such as the one's you've mentioned) being used once we're out of Ministers. (If there are any specific cities that we wanted to keep their previous name (such as St. Petersburg) and come back to ministers later, then that'd be fine with me -- I'd just like to keep the system we have, which I like a lot).

-- adaMada

	04-10-2002 09:41									#21
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quote: Originally posted by adaMada Sorry for not getting back to you on this sooner... I have no objection to any of those city names, but I think that Ministers should get to decide first (I think it's just a nice system), with other fun citynames (such as the one's you've mentioned) being used once we're out of Ministers. (If there are any specific cities that we wanted to keep their previous name (such as St. Petersburg) and come back to ministers later, then that'd be fine with me -- I'd just like to keep the system we have, which I like a lot). -- adaMada

My point with the St. Petersburg/Petrograd/Leningrad/St. Petersburg example was more that the city was a RL example of a city changing names for political reasons multiple times in history, depending on the political climate at the time. It wasn't a suggestion of those names for any city of OURS . So, for instance, we could change Banana HQ to something else or then change our minds again and change it back, etc.

As for leaving minister-assigned names as they are, I generally agree other than that I don't think ministers should be allowed to name cities after themselves (Timeline, for instance).

That's just my thoughts on the matter.

	04-10-2002 10:41									#22
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Hmm...

Maybe if the city planner asks every person in the game, no wait creates a thread asking people to tell names of cities. One name/citizen.
Then the CP has the list of the names to choose from. The choosing might be just random or in the order they were suggested or even polled on.

	04-10-2002 18:28									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos As for leaving minister-assigned names as they are, I generally agree other than that I don't think ministers should be allowed to name cities after themselves (Timeline, for instance).

Re: Ministers and city names.

The original intention was to honor the ministers for their position. Some have big ego's and chose to use their own name, others do not desire recognition and chose to poll the public. Most fall in between somewhere.

The problem with this system, though, is there will be terms where no new cities will be founded. Will those ministers not be honored, then?

	04-10-2002 19:32									#24
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quote: Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx The original intention was to honor the ministers for their position. Some have big ego's and chose to use their own name, others do not desire recognition and chose to poll the public. Most fall in between somewhere. The problem with this system, though, is there will be terms where no new cities will be founded. Will those ministers not be honored, then?

quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb Leave the city named whatever the computer automatically names it. The Minister of Imperial Expansion starts a thread with images showing the cities needing names. Any minister who hasn't named a city gets to name one of the unnamed cities. Everyone is allowed to make suggestions for the rest. After a day or so of suggestions the MoIE opens a poll for each unnamed city with the suggestions and we vote on the city's name.

	04-10-2002 23:18									#25
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the ministers could agree to come up with several themes to be voted down to one and that one would give the city names some kind of cultural cohesiveness... which they don't seem to have right now. Since this game is about Democracy, it could follow those lines or the Great Banana even... anything to make some of the newer names anyway seem less random.