02-10-2002 20:09									#1
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What is the moment that you'd define as being the "turning point" in your games? That moment when you suddenly reach the top of the charts and surpass all the other players, never to be dethroned?

I know that there are a lot of variables that could interfere in this event, including key techs (gunpowder), key wonders (great library) and even availability of resources, but can you identify one particular moment in your recent games when the AI always seems to get behind?

	02-10-2002 20:19									#2
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A pretty tough question to answer, but I can say for sure that on any level below regent, my turning point comes quite early. Usually during the 2nd age.
I've come out on top in the ancient age, only when pursuing a conquest strategy.

Regent and above, however, are a completely different story. In at least one game, I never reached the top score. I think I managed to squeak by with a spaceship victory.

It seems like I'm always behind in the tech race - and even when ahead, not by much.

- Skeeve

	02-10-2002 20:38									#3
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Usually the turning point in my games comes around Military Tradition, and the game is definitely clinched around Industrialization; if I can conduct a bloody war with Cavalry and be the first to set up Railroads and Factories, there's no catching up.

In my experience, the turning point is quite variable (which adds to my enjoyment of the game). Once I used Mounted Warriors to great effect and found that I had complete control very early on. In another game, I obtained a definite lead of the opponents by selling them a particular tech (The Corporation?) for huge gtp deals, from which their economies could never recover.


Dominae

	02-10-2002 20:59									#4
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Usually, Military Tradition and Railroads do the trick for me. But, playing as the Romans, I once had a very strong position very early by using my Legions to conquer the whole continent. In general, effectively using my civ's UU is almost always the turning point for me. Another example: I once played the germans, and initially fought little wars, building up my economy and infrastructure. But as soon as I got mobile warfare, I crushed my opponent rather easily with my panzers. Late Golden Ages (middelages-industrial age) do magic too.

	02-10-2002 21:01									#5
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Tough question, as there are so many different game evolutions.

In one sense, in the ancient era, if I have done a proper job of damaging / controlling all local AI civs.

In another, pretty much warmongering, with either Knights or Cavs. The AI civs just can;t handle the hordes.

From a tech perspective, if I can jump ahead just before the industrial 'corridor,' often with the ToE, it's pretty much game over.

As a general observation, if you can "break the cycle" and get ahead of the AI civs in either military (not necessarily military tech, but rather in relative strength), tech research, or diplomacy, you can lever that advantage into a win.

The traditional, Civ2 approach, starting with REX, is not as effective, especially at higher levels, as it keeps you in catch-up mode until you break the cycle of empire productivity (if you ever do). Even then, the resulting win is often from breaking the military cycle, via relative strength resulting from hordes of Tanks, MI, and MA. That is too late and precarious an approach for me.

	02-10-2002 21:24									#6
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Playing as the Persians, I hold my immortals until the beggining of middle age to have more results from the GA. So I anexed one civ and started to build culture and other stuff, from this point nobody beat me.

With others civs, I usually build lots of horseman. Sometimes I atack and conquer one civ with horsemans, but I prefer hold them until have acess to Knight, when the fun really begins.

As you see, horses are the tool I use to have my turn points. And they really kick a$$!

	02-10-2002 23:04									#7
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quote: What is the moment that you'd define as being the "turning point" in your games?

When I change my focus from development and culture to military build-up, and this is usually during the industrial age.
I try not to go to war until then, except when I play with the Persians (it would be a shame to waste the Immortals). As soon as I become no.1 in production (factories+Hoover Dam) I start pumping out Cavalries (and later Tanks) and artilleries and the rest is history.

It is not only the turning point in winning, but also in the enjoyment I feel about the game. I don't even finish it sometimes. I don't have patience for Domination (or is it Conquest ??), while the Diplomatic or Space Race victory is not really satisfying. As for the Cultural victory, after a certain point it becomes sheer mathematics: 10 more turns to win, 9 more turns ...

	02-10-2002 23:14									#8
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Once I have a good Palace/FP barbell setup. This must occur, however, no later than the early middle ages in order for me to really take advantage of it. The earlier it happens, the more powerful it is.

Another good benchmark is after the completion of the "big three" early medieval wonders (Sun Tzu, Sistine, Leo's). If I can nab at least 2 out of the 3, things are going well. If I get them all, chances are the game is in the bag.

Or perhaps it is the moment I realize that I'm fighting a war while building nothing but city improvements (no reinforcements) and I'm winning rather handily. When you can build and fight all at once, you're all set.

-Arrian

	02-10-2002 23:25									#9
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On Monarch -- the moment I'm ahead in tech it's lights out.

On Emperor -- the time I'm sure the AI can't catch me on tech again or, more likely, that domination seems assured

On Deity -- shortly after my SS launch I'm pretty sure I'll win, maybe

	03-10-2002 00:11									#10
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As a builder/opportunist I usually didn't start to get ahead till Railroads and often it was the Theory of Evolution to Hoover Dam manuever that did the trick.

In my latest games which I have been warmongering in its come much earlier. As soon as I have control of my continent which can happen with horses or later with cavalry. Knights can help but they aren't around that long most of the time.

	03-10-2002 00:59									#11
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Ethelred As a builder/opportunist I usually didn't start to get ahead till Railroads and often it was the Theory of Evolution to Hoover Dam manuever that did the trick. In my latest games which I have been warmongering in its come much earlier. As soon as I have control of my continent which can happen with horses or later with cavalry. Knights can help but they aren't around that long most of the time.

Ahhh... seduced by the Dark Side.

	03-10-2002 01:12									#12
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Few things are more seductive than power.

-Arrian

	03-10-2002 01:18									#13
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It was bloody hard winning that way on Emperor. I won two out of four. Hard to get started hard to catch up and balancing out early development while having enough units to avoid being too much of a target was really hard. With a good starting position its a lot easier but its still requires very careful early development. One mistake can cost the game.

The only wonders I was going for till late was the Sistine Chappel and then the Theory of Evolution/Hoover Dam pairing. After that I could usually go for tanks and then I didn't have much to worry about. Getting there was the hard part.


Its not like I was trying to play a pacifisist game before but I rarely started wars. I did sometimes provoke them by intentionly spying and failing. That can help a lot in late game wars by giving you an edge against War Weariness. The real problem with not taking a lot of territory early is the difficulty in obtaining strategic and luxury resources. I

f the AI doesn't go to war with you it can be hard to get a Golden Age. Thats what was happening in my last game before 1.29f came out. I had to deal with a lot of jungle and was behind on tech. Made some mistakes on government choice as well. I had also had the problem of being pretty much in the middle of three other civs so I was unable to get them to fight each other. I was the best target for three different civs.

	03-10-2002 12:45									#14
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The Industrial age usually takes me from the middle of the pack to #1. When I get Cavalry the tide begins to turn and usually after spreading some Tanks around, it is mine. I try to avoid wars until then, which can be quite difficult.

Mostly on Emperor, with Egyptians.

quote: It is not only the turning point in winning, but also in the enjoyment I feel about the game. I don't even finish it sometimes.

I agree.

	03-10-2002 17:16									#15
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So, we could say that the builder and the warmongerer approaches may establish a distinct "point of no return", I mean, the builder approach starts to pay off in the middle to late Industrial Age, while the warmongerer approach often succeeds in the Ancient or Middle Ages.

Considering that the geography of your landmass and the availability of resources often dictate how you're going to develop and what tech path you're going to pursue, I wonder: is there a way to predict when a turning point will objectively happen, or this is something that is as fluid as the development of the game in the early turns?

	04-10-2002 16:55									#16
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bump

Hm. Maybe this thread would fare well in the strategy forum. Guess we have shallow waters here in the general forum.

	04-10-2002 18:39									#17
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i was thinking about this recently. my turning point on monarch occurs at the end of middle ages/beginning of industrial era. about this time i have my infrastructure in place, am raking in good cash from tech deals and resource/luxury trades, and have a decent research rate as the result of the nice income. this is usually when i begin pumping out military units like there's no tomorrow, knowing i have the cash to upgrade them when the time comes. i try to be the first to enter the industrial era, and beeline to scientific method. after start railroadin' and get theory of evolution and then hoover, that's about it.

	05-10-2002 15:40									#18
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When railroads are in place, the A.I will perish.

-S