04-10-2002 23:28									#31
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The issue is not speed but power in breaking down cities. Thought is if have RA I can use 6 armor and 10 RA to take 2 cities in a turn vs 10 armor and maybe artillery to take one city in a turn. Remember my army is still 2/3rd China's. The offense of armor is stronger, but that is almost balanced by city defensive and terrain bonuses. China stopped leaving troops in open terrain. They did once and I gained 17 that turn, since then they have been hiding.

- PF

	05-10-2002 00:37									#32
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I just have never seen any value in RA over arties. Both are 0.0.1. The BRF is 12.2.3 to 16.2.4 in practice it does not buy you much if anything. Don't get me wrong, I will upgrade, but not till it is with money I do not need. So how will RA help, and don't forget they both miss a great deal. I sat with 10 outside a city last night and 3 turns in a row, I only got 1 hit. Many time 5 failures in a row. I tend to abandon them once I start using MA as they miss so much and can't kept up. I use them where I can and they make decent additions to the defence.

	05-10-2002 00:53									#33
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vmxa1--

Re: movement.
Local preference, move range 2 tiles. Agreed BRF difference is only to show a different graphic.

Re: effectiveness
Yes they miss a lot, I only count on 4 HP/stack. Normally I would get about 2/stack, but vary elapsed time between select target and bombard target. I don't know if it actually increased effectiveness or I only think it changes as the random number is based off time interval.

Thought here is I have 20 artillery on continent that are sitting in cites China won't attack and I really don't know if I can move them at the rate of speed of infantry. That would negate panzer speed.

BTW, what does "vmxa1" stand for. Not easy to type.

--PF

	05-10-2002 01:02									#34
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The both are 0.0.1 the 1 is for movement. The civped disagrees with the manual and say BRF is 16.2.2 so they are the same in all but bombardment.
In practice I have not really seen any difference and just upgrade for giggles.
VMXA is Virtual Machine eXtended Architecture. It is an IBM mainframe opsys.

	05-10-2002 01:11									#35
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 The both are 0.0.1 the 1 is for movement.

I know that is the default, but since we have an editor why not use it? I edited RA unit to give movement of 2. Kept the rest the same.

quote: The civped disagrees with the manual and say BRF is 16.2.2 so they are the same in all but bombardment. In practice I have not really seen any difference and just upgrade for giggles.

That's why I changed movement. Boring to have 2 identical field bombardment pieces. My game experience is that RA misses more than artillery. Go figure.

quote: VMXA is Virtual Machine eXtended Architecture. It is an IBM mainframe opsys.

All right!! Great identity then.


--PF

	05-10-2002 01:28									#36
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 The both are 0.0.1 the 1 is for movement. The civped disagrees with the manual and say BRF is 16.2.2 so they are the same in all but bombardment.

Artillery 12.2.2

Radar Artillery 16.2.2

I finally found one thing RA does that is remotely usefull besides the 16 vs 12. It has Zone of Control. I have never had the tech myself. All my games have ended before I got the tech. It really should have a higher movement considering its self propelled. If I was to modify the entire Modern Era I think that is one change I would make. I see no reason to modify them otherwise since I wouldn't build them without a total overhaul of the Era.

	05-10-2002 02:03									#37
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quote: Originally posted by planetfall I know that is the default, but since we have an editor why not use it? I edited RA unit to give movement of 2. Kept the rest the same.

I played with this mod for precisely one game before moving it back to 1 move (I eventually returned to the default rules). Even with two moves I found them too slow for an advancing column of MA and so tended to use them as home continent defense, primarily against enemy naval forces that strayed too close to shore. The problem I had was that my entire continent was railroaded - so I would move them to the shoreline, fire a salvo, and then have to hit space and deal with them next turn or fortify them and remember where I left them next turn (or some turns later). This was well before 1.29f and the "Wake All" and "Fortify All" commands. Now, a movement of 4 and I would have been all over those badboys as offensive arty . . .

	05-10-2002 03:11									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Catt Now, a movement of 4 and I would have been all over those badboys as offensive arty . . .

That would be an interesting variation to play. Only worthwhile with the new stack command, but still intriquing as a twist to add excitement to ehe modern era.

--PF

	05-10-2002 04:25									#39
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Ethelred, even the ZoC is not much value to me as they can't move enough to do any blocking. I did once get to use it in a strange game that 14 civs were at war with me and sent troops throught the same choke point every turn or so. I had stacks of RA and made life tough. Use MA to mop up.

	05-10-2002 04:27									#40
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Planetfall- Ok, I did not know it was a mod game, but I still would not spend money I need to upgrade to RA. I would do it later and piece meal.

	05-10-2002 07:03									#41
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As Arrian HATES Longevity, I HATE RA.

The benefit of the upgrade from Arty is meaningless, especially with anything under move 3, and they take forever to fire. Add the lack of stack bombard, and I'd rather re-work every tile I have than screw around with RA.

	05-10-2002 07:51									#42
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I don't hate Longevity, but I do not see much value to it.

	07-10-2002 20:45									#43
	1770 AD update Remove this text

As in life, plans need to be changed during play.


Plans that failed
1. Thought RA had movement of 2, only had 1. Waste of upgrade. For next game changed to movement of 3 to see what play is like.
2. Idea of cutting roads to NW was a waste of time and cities were so weakly defended, easier to acquire than to delay.
3. The idea of hitting China's core production centers did not work as it took 5-7 turns to just get one center.


Summary current situation
1. China is off continent and has 2 island cities
2. Russia backed off on China and tried to settle open areas.
3. Russia building up BS and MI.
4. China war ended in 1758.
5. Will start Russia campaign within 10 turns


Last play :
1. It took until 1665, 7 turns before China and Germany military land units equalized.
2. China's net change/turn: -24 to +3
3. Germany's net change/turn: -2 to +10
4. Net gain/turn: -2 to +20.
{Don't have averages yet}

Annoying it took 28 turns to complete mission.

I did not:
1. draft citizens
2. switch former Roman cities building military generators into just building units
3. change to war mobilization

Don't know if any of those play changes would have decreased acquisition time significantly.

Question

1. Any suggestions on how to further improve play?

2. Is it normal to take about 35 turns to take over a 4# city continent empire?


-- PF

	07-10-2002 23:24									#44
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Well I ran into the issue of mods and crashes. I played one turn and then it blows to the desktop. It will take some time to bust a metro with infantry and arties as they are slow and will be ineffective. You need tanks to get it done quickly. You had (1450 sav) 7 pikes, 30 warriors? 22 spearmen?. Cities where making inf or calv that needed hospitols. I would rather get the growth going and banks, then add troops. By that time you can make tanks. You had money and could make a trade for more, so I would disband the warriors and upgrade the pikes. I would hold off on upgrades to spears until I capture Rome with Leo's then start upgrading the spears to infantry. I think I would gather 5 -7 calvs and pillage all improvements to crush the production of those cities while I massed units. This will cause the metro's to shrink some making it easier to take off and they can be replaced easy later with the 35 workers you have. Once I get tanks, then you can move out to the rest or even hold of to the next age.

	08-10-2002 01:19									#45
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Ok, I got it to play a few turns. First turn made some changes from inf to hospitols or infrastructure as you already have plenty of units. Moved forward units to make a united front on Rome and the other large city (can't see the name). Repulsed an attack. Second turn Russia offer gold for lux, rome asked for peace (no way). Attack with arties and got reminded why I build so few (boring to shoot 10-15 and hit 3 and do nearly no damage) Send a few units in to kill a few troops to soften. Third turn created a leader and captured Rome. Made an army to get epic going soon. Hospitols up, so started Battlefield. Rebuilding some roads and pressing the other city now. Got Leos so upgrade units and I scrapped the rest of the warriors and some swords/longbow to get more income. don't need all those units as finished tech and now going 4 turns for tanks. Need to look at shipping to get an invasion ready with tanks/calv/inf.

	08-10-2002 01:40									#46
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VMXA1--

Hospitals:
1. don't remember having the tech available
2. is it good to create hospitals before cities are size 10-11?
{I didn't know hospitals requirement for BM}

Move forward:
1. How many do you leave in other cities?
{2. yet arts are boring, best value is shields for cities in resistance}
3. Interesting I have not used cavs to destroy improvements as preraid tactic. I will have to give that a try.

It would be interesting to see a posted sav of where you were able to bring the game.

--PF

	08-10-2002 02:30									#47
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Here is one.
You need 5 hospitols to build the BM. I did only a bit of pillaging as it turned out. In 1505AD I have captured all the roman cities on this land mass. Bad news, no oil. I had to give up a ton to get it from Russia and cranked out panzers and cracked the last three cities. Got transports now and will send tanks to get oil near one roman city. Will rush an airpirt to airlift more units as I must take all cities there one way or another (no sharing). I will finish research flight this turn and go to next age and then cut back research a notch to not be in the red, unless I can get money for techs after the freebie, not sure if I want to do that as those are big time techs.

Attachment: bismarck of the germans, 1505 ad.sav
This has been downloaded 1 time(s).

	08-10-2002 02:55									#48
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Here is one. You need 5 hospitols to build the BM.

Ok that is enough reason to up priority of building hospitals.

quote: Bad news, no oil.

I need to look at this, I had oil. I knew Roman had no oil and no luxuries, just land
and land and land.

I'll let you know tomorrow where the oil is.

{Wish this game had XY grid coordinates!!!!!
At least PTW fixes 3 of my pet peeves:
-- Manhattan only GW and not SW
-- turns now visible. {more exactly can set year as fixed interval and not current variable}
-- greater range for aircraft

}

-- PF

	08-10-2002 03:49									#49
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Sorry I ment to mention that Hospitols are required to get cities to grow above size 12 (exclude rivers), that is the real reason. In 1565 I eliminated Rome and grabbed the oil they had on one of their island. Will start prebuilds soon for cure and Long and then go after the pollution help and manhatten. I would say the next move is to take down Japan to get on that land mass. Need to upgrade inf to MI as well.

Attachment: bismarck of the germans, 1565 ad.sav
This has been downloaded 0 time(s).

	08-10-2002 06:10									#50
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Planetfall, is there some mod affecting pollution and corruption? Poll seems slow to hit and almost no corrupption? Found two more sources of oil, there were hard to see and not available at first, no biggy as russia need the help anyway. Dropped on Edo now and it is easy money. All inf are now MI. Seti is up and all the other wonders are due to finish soon, while no one else has started them.

	08-10-2002 09:45									#51
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I am not sure what wins are available, but I would say the game is a lock for any except Dom/Conquest. China is huge now, abut 200 inf/tanks and 32 bombers. They sent over 70 units to get one Russian tank in the late 1600's. I pushed Japand off the land mass that has China and have 5-6 cities there in 1710. All units are MA/MI. I would likely take that the last island that Russia has to ensure no domination could occur. A scoring win is in the bank as Germany is now less than 500 behind and the last 3/4 wonders are near done. If one had the desire they could take out china with a painful war and maybe I will. This is possible as your are impervious to any attack on your homeland and all that is at risk is units and a few new cities. If they over run them it will be with huge loses in troops and cities and cripple thier efforts, while you can replace losses with ease. Maybe after the news I will do it. I have not looked to see if they can be cut off from Oil or Rubber in a quick dash.

Attachment: bismarck of the germans, 1710 ad.sav
This has been downloaded 2 time(s).

	08-10-2002 20:09									#52
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VMXA1-
With game last night, did not get a chance to really review your file. Definitely plan to review tonight and see if I have a .sav about the same time.

German oil locations:
-- NE core empire @ Dortmund, 1 tile to East
-- S land bridge @ New Heidelberg, 1 tile to West.

I continued the game to 1784. A city flipped back to China after I pushed them off the continent. Bye, bye China. Russia has 2 island cities. On big island Russia has 2/5 cities left for another 2..3 turns.

Wins available:
-- score
-- conquest

Score at 1784 is about 2000 with Germany now about 100 ahead of China. When I was playing warlord level, I had a 5### game. I think I will play this game out to see if I can top that score. Gets real boring playing that way, more like Simcity, but would be nice to see higher score at higher level than warlord.

Pollution:
Yes, this is edited down as I didn't see how it helped game play. Most default pollution generators give off no pollution, except coal. They are too messy not to give off pollution. Some improvements also were changed to count vs building/people pollution.

Corruption:
I'm fairly sure corruption slider is at 100%. However, positive police stations/courthouses/cathedrals all reduce corruption. Oh, biggest change is OCN is either 40 or 50. I think it is 40 instead of 24, but I will have to check the bic to see. I know it is not higher than 50 and at least 40.

Big continent:
I followed your advice and moved as many units forward without leaving any city without units. I pushed Russia off big continent in 4 turns. Forgot I also had to get them off the big island and so had to move/build transports etc to get there.

Play Level:
What level do you play at? It might be fun to play a game you have started.


-- PF

	08-10-2002 21:34									#53
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Good job. I prefer Monarch, but have been playing emp and Deity the last 3 games that I started. I would have been inclined to make some manufactoring planets earlier if I had known they would not kill me with pollution. I normally do not make them or coal plants. I got bummed out when I discovered that lethal bombing was allowed. I bombed a Japanese ship and it sunk. That makes thing completely difference as you can no longer ignore bombers. Normally they can not sink your ships or kill you units so you do not have to sweat them.

	08-10-2002 21:54									#54
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VMXA1-

I never never make coal as they are too messy. Too much like old Chicago, or Pittsburg, or E. St. Louis.

Now, the manu plants are not the old manu plants. They are 2nd generation low pollution plants. It might be nice to have 2nd generation low pollution plants available to advanced civs but only 1st generation high pollution available to retarded civs, but that would add too much complexity.

Forgot about lethal bombardment. I should deselect it. At first I loved it, but then I realized: wait there go my easy picking for GL's. Now I avoid air strikes on units with 1 HP. Thanks for the reminder.

Speaking about naval changes. One of last games changed BS so could not see invisible. Had SSN's with hidden nationality. Oh and bombers could not see invisible either. Needed AEGIS or other sub to see them. AI flooded the seas with more than 30 subs. Taking about making sea travel dangerous.

-- PF

	10-10-2002 20:35									#55
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VMXA1--

Ok quickly compared 1505.sav's and did not see much difference in mini map. Will check key variables and report:
1. techs
2. productivity
3. military strength
4. cash


Just got the 1710.sav, I will compare both and see what I can learn from your play and then post findings for verification.

-- PF

	10-10-2002 22:44									#56
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I think the only value is the the upgrading of units, get hospitals sooner. I would have played differently if I had known about some of the mods sooner, especially leathal bombing. I would have moved to get jets and bombers as they could have done a lots of damage and stopped the AI from doing same to me. I would have made sams in some forward cities as well. That why I stopped, I knew I had wasted turns. But it was fun.