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planetfall
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Incoming from CO
Jan 2002
time: 22:22
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Final image.
It is now 1450 ad.
Small continent:
I have expanded and taken 3 more Roman cities. {I know only 3 in 50 years}. Rome itself actually fell after this turn. {the center dot above the blue Y}.
Rome would have sued for peace but had no gold, no luxuries, no techs to offer. Rather than have them revert, I continue to press on. I don't care about presence on small island. But do want the continent and the 3 dot island.
Military at this time is 43 infantry, 12 art, 6 cavs.
Large continent:
China is going crazy! Woah nellie. Greece is now down to 1 city on big continent. So much for stopping China. China has 115 inf. Russia is miniscule with about 15-20 inf. Russia has cherry picked and temporarily planted 3 cities in the newly freed up space. Two below Greece and one NE.
Ok, now you see the situation. Other than going back to an old save and working on Rome earlier {which I plan to try later}, is there any way to save this opps game?
Time buyer #1
I have a transport with 1 settler and 3 inf in lower 1 city island and plan to sail to white square. Not much there but mountains, hopefully there will still be a place to plant a diverting settler.
Time buyer #2
If TB#1 fails, I might be able to get the small Greece island off the main continent. I would like to have Russia around for awhile and if can get a presense to south and can put in an airport {tech about 9 turns away}, it can distract China.
BTW- China capital is about even with right brown divider on the frame. It looks like the frame just barely covers it.
Since N should still be weak, I plan to move E and land in NE where America was for my continent foot hold. It will be nasty fighting and long shot. I can probably get
20 inf and 8 art over there.
My fear is by the time I take care of Rome and get any presense Russia and Japan will long sense have disappeared.
Germany plusses
Hoover
high productivity
2 techs from panzers
most cities have factories and all culture
UnivSuff
Even
tech race
distance from other major civ
annoying civs in the arena
China plusses
infanty 3x next largest
largest land area
no need to trade for luxuries
Idea?
Thanks.
-- PF
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Ethelred
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Two ways to go.
You can turtle up and shoot for the Space Race. There is now way for China to invade you if you have the place railroaded fully and have enough artillery. Some ships to finish the bombarded Chinese ships would be needed as well. I don't think China can get a domination victory without invading you. It may be close though so it would be a good idea to take some more land and hold it.
The other way is that you are close to panzers. Build eight or more transports starting now while you are waiting for the panzers. More will be better as that will allow you to invade at more than point. Hit China with a HORDE of panzers where they have got a rail network up. That way you can blitz city after city. You will need to raze many of them I suspect but if you overdo it you won't be able to keep those panzers rolling at top speed. I hate razing but you may not have a choice in this instance.
With tanks razing would be the best thing to do but with panzers you can hit a city and with rails you can hit another and then another going deeper and deeper all in one turn.
Build some destroyers and battleships to escort the transports. Don't bother with planes, they won't be able to keep up with a panzer blitz. They can't even keep up with tanks.
Invasion is going to take a LOT of panzers if China has a lot of infantry. Hit Chinas resources. Oil in particular. If you can knock all its oil it will be stuck with inferior units. Be ready to rush build an airport in the Chinese territory and have plenty in your territory to move the Panzers over quicker than you can with transports.
Don't bother with a half done invasion. If you don't hit the beaches with enough units you will be pushed back. You are going to eventually need about one panzer per infantry unit that China has. Not that many to start with but you must be able to keep producing panzers faster than China can produce infantry. This means your should have ten or more cities that can produce a panzer in two turns and it would be nice to have have Ironworks so you have one city cranking them out every turn. Normally the AI will not be able to match that due to its poorer shield production.
If you can take out Chinas core cities fast you will have the game in hand and based on those mini-maps it looks to me like you should be able to invade from the former Roman cities west across the water to reach the Chinese core cities.
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jshelr
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pittsburgh
Apr 2002
time: 00:22
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The panzer invasion is good advice and is correct if you can produce the units in time as it will give you a golden age at just the right time. I suppose you could mobilize anyway. Otherwise, if it takes longer, wait for MA as China will upgrade to MI.
As for the invasion, if you land a stack on a mountain, you don't need much defensive support to ward off the Chinese initial response -- which might actually be no response if your stack is big enough.
Personally, I'd take settlers, not to replace cities, but to bridge gaps and allow the bllitz to continue. What I mean is that sometimes you can't get to the next city in three moves, so your panzers or MA units are stymied. You can, however, always move a settler to the outlying square of a captured city, abandon the city, and build with the settler. That "captures" one more square of enemy RR and allows the panzer blitz to continue. I bet you could use this trick easily five times in a job as big as you face.
If you bog down or there are lots of Chinese MI, a stack of arty, bigger the better, while it moves more slowly, will keep you going against heavy resistance.
The key fact is that this will be a one-sided war. China is not coming to you. You are going to China.
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planetfall
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Incoming from CO
Jan 2002
time: 22:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Ethelred
Two ways to go.
You can turtle up and shoot for the Space Race. There is now way for China to invade you if you have the place railroaded fully and have enough artillery. Some ships to finish the bombarded Chinese ships would be needed as well. I don't think China can get a domination victory without invading you. It may be close though so it would be a good idea to take some more land and hold it.
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NoGo, Space is boring, turned off. Emotional rush by winning/losing does not compare to rush of conquest
quote:
The other way is that you are close to panzers. Build eight or more transports starting now while you are waiting for the panzers. More will be better as that will allow you to invade at more than point. Hit China with a HORDE of panzers where they have got a rail network up. That way you can blitz city after city. You will need to raze many of them I suspect but if you overdo it you won't be able to keep those panzers rolling at top speed. I hate razing but you may not have a choice in this instance.
With tanks razing would be the best thing to do but with panzers you can hit a city and with rails you can hit another and then another going deeper and deeper all in one turn.
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Razing, duh. I don't like razing either, but you are right. It would be important in this case, at least with the native China Cities.
The biggest advantage of not razing is movement hinderance of counter attacks.
quote:
Build some destroyers and battleships to escort the transports.
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What worked last time was
- 5 transports
- artillery only
- infantry only
- infantry only; or InfArmy + inf. However in this game not one GL yet.
- panzers only
- settlers (2), infantry (6)
- 2 BS
- 5 Des
I may lose a DS or two, but transports will survive.
quote:
Don't bother with planes, they won't be able to keep up with a panzer blitz. They can't even keep up with tanks.
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Actually use planes about 3 turns after landing, when naval protection returns to home. Add 2 carriers, 2 fighters and 6 bombers. China only has 3 rubber and 2 are within 2 tiles of sea. If I can divert production to fighters and naval units, less for panzers/MA to roll over.
A fighter and a few bombers over key landing zone seem quite effective in guaranting landing zone survival.
quote:
Invasion is going to take a LOT of panzers if China has a lot of infantry. |
Even worst if they get MI. MA will be first tech to go for in Modern Era
quote:
Hit Chinas resources. Oil in particular. If you can knock all its oil it will be stuck with inferior units. |
Huh, I was going to go for rubber first. I'll relook at oil
quote:
Be ready to rush build an airport in the Chinese territory and have plenty in your territory to move the Panzers over quicker than you can with transports.
Don't bother with a half done invasion. If you don't hit the beaches with enough units you will be pushed back. You are going to eventually need about one panzer per infantry unit that China has. Not that many to start with but you must be able to keep producing panzers faster than China can produce infantry. This means your should have ten or more cities that can produce a panzer in two turns and it would be nice to have have Ironworks so you have one city cranking them out every turn. Normally the AI will not be able to match that due to its poorer shield production.
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No ironworks, but I have never found ironworks to be too effective. My core cities can pump out military now in 1-2 turns. After MA I will research ManuPlants.
Don't think I need a 1:1 ratio of panzers to AI infantry. Mechs maybe, but a 1 inf : .75 panzers should be more than enough. Remember they retreat and can take time to heal.
Key here is to be able to match AI production at worst and exceed it at best.
Another reason why opps game. Needed Roman cities up to production now, not in 100 turns when the game has already been decided.
quote:
If you can take out Chinas core cities fast you will have the game in hand and based on those mini-maps it looks to me like you should be able to invade from the former Roman cities west across the water to reach the Chinese core cities. |
Yes this is the primary landing zone. I never make a landing until at least 1/2 of my core cities have airports and I have enough cash to rush in 2 landing zone cities: 1st-airport, 2nd-barracks, 3rd-library, 4th-harbor.
Great idea
Previously I have focused on easy pickings, the outlying areas and moved inward. I'll have to try hitting core cities first. I don't think AI will fight back any harder and each city won means a great gain in both reducing China culture and hammering production capability.
Ok, you have convinced me, game is not hopeless yet. Just need to be careful. And Monarch is worst than this. Yikes.
-- PF
jshelr
Golden age just started about 2 turns before 1450.
Better advancing technique to keep momentum:
1. capture city
2. sell off all you can
3. move units thru the 3 tiles of the city you can
4. repeat as much as possible, leave NO units in city.
5. {this is key}. Don't forget to abandon city BEFORE turn ends.
It is amazing how far you can get this way, if you are willing to open up areas of influence.
-- PF
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Ethelred
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I think its often faster to Modern Armour if you get Computers first. For a Scientific Civ it would depend on how fast your tech research is going. Non-scientific civs need to reasearch three techs to build MA and the Research Labs can often speed that up enough to make up for the time spent on getting Computers.
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planetfall
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Incoming from CO
Jan 2002
time: 22:22
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Ethelred--
Excellent point about different path for non-scientific civs.
Machiavelli
Here is the save.
NB: Configuration error from 2 games ago effects this game. Two games ago I got mad when Greece "cheated" by getting 2 new techs in 3 turns when no one else had the techs except me. So I gave Germany Robotics in editor. Did not correct in last game as ran Monarchy thru whole game and never got to modern age. Boy was I surprised to see robotics before I researched it. Undone "cheat adjustment" as I have an explanation as to how it may not be a cheat. But that will not effect this game.
To keep game play even don't use benefits of robotics until you would have normally obtained this tech.
Preference changes:
bombers-- range 8, recon
carriers-- load 6
artillery-- range 2
Can't recall if naval movement increased 1 or 2 from default.
jets--range somewhere between 4 and 6
BS-- see invisible
May be other small ones but can't recall them.
No nukes as previously mentioned because Firaxis will not allow each civ to build manhattan as a SW instead of GW.
game progress
Worried too much. Still close but think it is won.
Landing in NE China went without challenge, except declaration of war. Took over 5 transports with 16 art, 8 panzers, 2 settlers and rest infantry. Sequence was:
1. landing, and follow up declaration of war. 5 units on one hill, 1 tile from Phile and all other units on second hill halfway between Phile and {previous American coastal town}.
2. Planted city and rushed airport. Since China sent over no troops, used arts on Phile and 5 panzers took city. Abandoned city.
3. Now new city is only 1/2 in China influence area. If city doesn't flip I can take the city to the north next turn. Then I will savely be outside China zone of influence. Moved half of units to neighboring hill in case flips.
Surprisingly China let city to south live with only 10 infantry in it. It was squeezed in a 2 tile slot 2 tiles from China city. I pushed library so my influence takes tile separating 2 cities. Since then I have reinforced with 6 panzers.
Other development, in core empire have about 10 cities on military production only. Other cities are working on building up production capability. I will be review unit build rates to see if I need to switch some increase production capability to generate production now.
Year 1600 overview
China declared war in 1595 when landed in area of influence and refused to move.
Russia and Japan honored MPP and declared war on China. Thus china has 4 potential fronts:
1. NE- German new city in previous America
2. NW- Japan
3. W- Russia
4. SW- Small German city.
Japan-- most powerful unit is rifleman, count is 7. Not a factor.
Russia-- a little power, but not much
bombers-- 7
BS--2
DS--3 {don't ask me why these are needed except maybe to protect island}
Infantry-- 35
art--2
China--
Just switched to commie, Yeah!! Out production should not be a problem now.
Navy-- a gallery and ironclad. Oh let me tremble, tremble, tremble.
Air-- 11 bombers. I expected to be hit in landing zone. My sole carrier had 3 jets on AS and either that worked to protect or bombers were too far away. Expect to take some losses as campaign progresses but do not plan to build much of an air force. I plan to add, slowly, another carrier and 4 bombers to take out one rubber until army can get there.
Army-- big, big pink mass of willing fighters. It will not be a short campaign and should remain interesting for quite some time.
Tanks-- 4, {these just came on line}
artillery-- 12 {small number for number of cities, nice}
infantry--165
If I were playing China, I would allocate this way:
10 inf-- Japan
20 inf-- Russia
60 inf-- SW city. It only has 8 inf and 6 panzers. However it does have an airport and expect reinforcements of 2-5 units/turn.
30 inf-- NE city, to slow German advance and then use remainers of 60 on southern front to push off continent.
It will be interesting to see how AI plays China.
Oh, what does Germany have?
NAVY
carrier-- 1
BS-- 4
DS-- 3
transports-- 7 {2 for reserve}
AIR
jets-- 5 {3 on carrier, 2 SE China city}
bombers-- 2
ARMY
panzers-- 47
artillery-- 18
infantry-- 66
Thus my army is about 2/3rd size of China's. About 2 turns from MA. Will be very interesting to see how the strategy of going for China's core cities works out. Probably won't have as much effect for communist as none communist government, but still should have a significant effect. It will be interesting to see if AI puts up a stronger fight knowing you are targeting core cities.
Have fun playing.
-- PF
 Attachment: opps_german_1450 ad.sav
This has been downloaded 7 time(s).
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planetfall
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Incoming from CO
Jan 2002
time: 22:22
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quote:
Originally posted by sun_tzu_159
PlanetFall,
What started China on conquest of so many cities so quickly and all AI vs AI? |
What living up to your alias? What an insightful question. Here is a timeline I will leave interpretation up to you:
MPP #A -- Rome & China
Think was triggered by Rome seeing my military buildup. Even though China was way away, I did not want to risk harrassment so focused on building production capability.
MPP #B -- Germany & Russia
Thought was simply to get China guessing and not focusing on Germany.
MPP A expires
MPP #C -- Germany & Japan
Again keep China guessing as leading in land and productivity and score and power.
{Greece and America refused MPP}
MPP #D -- Germany & China
Greece was growing and I did not have espionage and thought China was weaker. Besides if in MPP with China, they would not make one with Rome.
China wipes America.
A couple of turns later I start on Rome, but let them live on island.
quote:
You have winning position for your armies if you can keep the transports running unhindered. |
I only use transports after initial landings for: settlers, workers, armies. Everything else is airlifted
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When you take a city you want to keep select to build temple and rush-buy (if enough cash) so that it is effective straight away to prevent riot in turn after city is conquered. |
Other than the one happiness it generates, is a temple any better than a library?
Isn't culture, culture. Just a difference in
the culture points per turn?
quote:
If you put four to six troops in the city all resistors should be quickly quelled. |
Problem is they stay there too long. This is my normal method of playing, but with high number of Chinese infantry thinking of going the raze city route.
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Make sure that sufficient troops are ready for second attack if a first attack fails. |
Steady stream, that is why I focus first on wartime production capability and secondly on troops.
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Try to get Battlefield Medicine Wonder built if not already so that troops can heal after battle outside of towns and cities which you think are at too great a risk of culture flip. |
Just got it.
quote:
Launch a second front where there has been other recent battles where the numbers of troops will be lower and more damaged.
Regards
Sun_Tzu |
That's why I have the weak presence in the SW and the second city on the continent.
--PF
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planetfall
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Incoming from CO
Jan 2002
time: 22:22
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Well, 6 turns since yesterday and China's army and Germany's army are the same relative strength. China is 1.5x Germary; Germany is .67% China's army.
Here is turn sequence for Land Forces available:
Key:
[Year..China..Germany]
Yr..Marine.Infantry.Tank..Army..Total___Infantry.Panzer.MA..Army..Total__Net Change
1605..?.162.3..0..165___66.50.0..0..116__ 0
1610..?.159.17..0..176___66.53.0..0..119__ -6
1615..13.153.18..0..184___66.44.4..0..114___ -13
1620..6.142.14..0..162___64.36.11..0..111___ 19
1625..6.138.20..1..165___64.27.17..1..109___ -5
1630..6.139.17..1..163___62.25.21..2..110___ 3
Net change over 6 turns: -3 military units
Strategy during 6 turns
1. Primary zone to NE. Secure area and reduce China area of influence.
2. Secondary zone to SW. Divert some of China's army away from primary zone.
3. Move south towards Beijing which is coastal white square below the white rectangle.
Areas of control changes during 6 turns
1. East-- China took about 12 of Russian cities. {2 I recaptured and abandoned so Russia can resettle if she wishes}
2. SW-- Removed 2 China cities. First to go the was the city 2 tiles away which had the low potential of causing a flip. China only threw about 15 units against me in the South. I expect more units shortly as one of rubbers is in SE and I am starting to move there.
analysis Secondary zone was super idea. Not much of value to China in SW, unlike zone in NE and resources in SE. Finally I was able to get a GL and build an army. Definitely worth it just to be able to build Heroic Epic and Mil Acad.
3. NE--Took out 2 coastal cities south of zone and one city in mountains towards the Russian point. Also took over a minor former American city to NNE, but that was just to reduce culture pressure. Makes map look good but of very limited value.
Revised strategy
Since there has been no gain in Land Forces in 6 turns, a change of strategy is called for. Revering to prior strategies.
1. Reduce tech funding
More important right now than Nuclear power is movement ability and hurting China's land force. I am not sure how long Russia can continue to hold off the pink swarm with only 33 infantry. Reduced tech funding to 0, so I will have a positive cash flow of about 300. I need 1,600 gold to upgrade artillery to radar artillery.
2. target army
China has a 3 unit tank army in former American city, the white square at the bottom of the bay above the white rectangle. Don't know why China decided defend this city. Size 22 but no special resources, unless there is a wonder in there, huh, better check.
3. break area of influence to NW
Since I am going for the Army anyway, might as well take the port city to the N and the connector city to SW, towards Russia. I didn't see any other airports or ports, a few units breaking roads should incite more corruption and less production in 7 former American cities. Since China is communist, this should also help reduce production in core cities.
4. focus on strategic resources
Available to China:
Oil = 4
Rubber = 5
Alum = 4
Further analysis shows
OIL {key: 0=current, -=when city expands}
- Detroit
o Macao
- Detroit
- Nankai
RUBBER
o Argos
o Maikup
o New Nanking
o Anyong
o Kaikun
ALUM
o St Louis
- New Chengdon
o Canton
o Shanghai
You think Macao might be a good target!!! It is both close and of key strategic importance.
5. Continue secondary thrust to SE
There is oil and rubber and a few luxuries to SE. My 2 MA Armies are nearby and cities are small. If I can get another city or two down there I can increase luxuries and reduce the entertainment funding drain. I am running republic and 20% is currently the cost of this government.
6. Diversify Military Generators
I added 2 during this turn and so have 19 Geneators now. Before review I was just going to pump out more MA's. Now I think I will instead use these 2 for dedicated purposes. I will be for armies. The second will be for naval units to support South diversion. I need better protection for transports to carry army leaders across the big pond. The biggest threat is the 11 Chinese bombers, so I need at least 2 carriers and 6 jets to protect the transports.
Well that's enough to keep my mind occupied. I hope these changes will have a better effect on the size of Land Forces.
What do you all think? Anything else you would do that I am missing?
Thanks
-- PF
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02-10-2002 23:19
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