04-10-2002 23:18									#31
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Togas, so effectively they will pay us 180 gold(9gpt discount) for doing what we will do anyway. WOOHOO
Also what if we threw in wines/incense(since we get very little for wines anyway)
Aggie

	04-10-2002 23:26									#32
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Togas: I agree, both on the colony and the alliance with the Aztecs.
Regarding the colony, if we changed to temple in one of the Persian towns near the 3rd incense tile and rushed it we'd have to pay ~65 gold and then have to wait 5 turns to gain control over the incense. We would therefore lose 5 turns during which we could have made a nice profit of 3-5 gpt (15-25 gold). In total we'll lose ~85 gold. On the other hand, a colony will only cost us a worker (10 shields or 40 gold to rush, or ~20 gold to buy) and one population (for building a replacement worker), which is no big deal since we have the Pyramids and can grow quickly.
Regarding the alliance with Persia, the discussion itself is interesting but until we can prove this there's no point in giving up the idea of allying with the Aztecs, especially not for such a price on invention. Btw, maybe you should see if they'll give invention and their WM for 11gpt; I can't load the game right now so I have no idea if this'll work.

Aggie: I wish we could do that, but alas we lack a trade route with the Aztecs.

	04-10-2002 23:44									#33
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Ok after due consideration I will support colony(though it is really the pw area). I do suggest we use a "guest worker"
Aggie

	05-10-2002 00:47									#34
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Can Foreign Workers be used for our own colonies?

(We don't want to accidently create a colony for another empire.)

	05-10-2002 01:08									#35
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Yes they can.
In any case, we cannot create a colony for another civilization, no matter how hard we try.

	05-10-2002 01:17									#36
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Give my regards to E_T That's a major coup if we can pull something like this off

As for the colony, go for it

	05-10-2002 01:17									#37
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Shiber Btw, maybe you should see if they'll give invention and their WM for 11gpt; I can't load the game right now so I have no idea if this'll work.

They will. That's my dilema. I either want to get Invention from them, or Education from the Greeks, but I'm trying to decide which to do. If we do both, it'll end up costing us around 30gpt, which is way too much to ask the MoE to spare, and we'd be better off getting one of those two techs for free from the Persian peace deal.

Suggestions anyone?

I either do:

A) Ally with Aztez. Get Invention. Pay 11gpt. Sell Incense to Rome for 6gpt.

B) Give Incense and around 20gpt to Greece for Education. Just get cash and WM from Aztecs with alliance.

--Togas

	05-10-2002 01:24									#38
	Put an end to popups!

We can't get a lot of cash from the Aztecs with the alliance. IIRC they will not even agree to give us gpt. On the other hand, they will give us a discount of 9 gpt for a tech. If we take option B we're effectively throwing that discount away.
Togas, IMHO we should wait until we are ready to sign a peace treaty with Persia or until we are ready to attack America and only then buy a tech from the Aztecs with an alliance. By then:
a. They might get Education.
b. The price of Ivention, Education or whatever tech we buy from them might drop since another civ or two might discover it in the mean time, and the more civs that you know of know a tech, the less it costs.

	05-10-2002 01:33									#39
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Shiber Togas, IMHO we should wait until we are ready to sign a peace treaty with Persia or until we are ready to attack America and only then buy a tech from the Aztecs with an alliance. By then: a. They might get Education. b. The price of Ivention, Education or whatever tech we buy from them might drop since another civ or two might discover it in the mean time, and the more civs that you know of know a tech, the less it costs.

Good point. Anyone disagree? If not, I'll go with plan A. Makes a lot of sense.

--Togas

	05-10-2002 01:37									#40
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Any possibility of arranging to say buy Invention and selling it for Education or conversely buying Education and selling it for Invention?

If we have to choose one or the other before the Persian war ends, go with Education, since we know that other civs have techs beyond Education, while we don't yet know of anyone with Gunpowder.

	05-10-2002 02:06									#41
	My reasons and what we should do Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

This is copied from a PM to Togas from me, pasted here

quote: quote: Togas wrote on 04-10-2002 13:18: E_T, Your advice please, which should we do: Trade Incense to Greece for a discount on Education, and buy it. Ally with Aztecs and just get their WM and some gold. Get Invention and (mystery tech) from Persia. OR ... Sell Incense to Rome for lots of gold Ally with Aztecs and buy Invention at a discount. Get Education and (Gunpowder?) from Persia.

1) Trade with Greece for Education, using the anticipated Incense. If the War with America can wait for 2 turns, then do this while renegotiating peace with Greece for a bit of a discount, hopefully.

2) Before Allying with the Aztecs, Sell America Chivalry for WM and their entire treasury (but no LPT). They have NO Hourses so they can't make use of the Tech.

3) Then Ally against America for as much gold (and WM) as the Aztecs can handle.

Reasons for this recommendation:
1) We KNOW that Persia has Music Theory, they are building JSB.

2) We can get two techs from them now, so we should be able to get them for free after we take Arbela.

3) We can currently get 1 tech and 1 city, but I really don't think that after taking Arbela, that we'll be able to get 2 Techs & 1 City. We can look at it when the time comes.

4) We'll need the money to buy Astronomy from someone. Germany has it, but it's only guessing as to if anyone else does yet. But that might change by the end of the war. Persia isn't in a position to really do any research and they don't have the cash flow to buy it.

If we decide to Buy Education and then Astronomy, we should try to do it as part of a Peace Renegotiation, for a bit of a discount. We'll also have Spices to sell too.

Just to let you know, Persia has Iron again!

I'm working on trying to get my spreadsheet to post on the Forum, it makes a lot of things clearer.

E_T

[EDIT] End paste

If Persia had Gunpowder and Saltpeter, we would have seen Musketmen by now. I really don't think that they have Gunpwder yet. One of the other Civs might be reseaching it now, but I really don't think that they have gotten it yet.

E_T

	05-10-2002 14:17									#42
	Tired of ads?

That's a very interesting idea joncnunn! However, if we get both Education and Invention it will leave us with only one tech to get from the Persians (Music Theory), as at their current state of heavy war weariness and low resources they're unlikely to get another tech by the time we reach terms with them.
We should definitely "techwhore" Invention around once we get it though. I suggest that once we are ready to ally with the Aztecs (we are about to attack America, about to sign peace with Persia or both) we stop the game to allow further discussion.

	05-10-2002 21:29									#43
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I'm going to play this around 10:30 PM my time (-6 GMT) so if anyone wants to change orders should do it within the next 11 hours.

	06-10-2002 08:42									#44
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I decided to cancel the turnthread. I have no PW or CP orders (I lost GK's pm so this is my fault in part).

I don't feel like messing with SMC orders.

This leaves two orders: one IE and one FM. It would take OPD more time to download the new save than to quickly complete these two orders.