03-10-2002 06:23									#1
	440 AD Turnthread Got spare money?

I decided I should have a quick turnthread to finish up at least part of this turn. Just some Imperial Expansion/Public Works/City Planning stuff that is rather boring in the regular chats. No SMC related movements needed though. The Aztec situtations means we have reason to wait until the next chat.

This will probably take place Friday night/Saturday morning or maybe Saturday night/Sunday morning depending on when the chat is.

One other thing. I named the new city "Site E." I'll need someone to tell me the new name for both it and Tarsus.

	03-10-2002 07:08									#2
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Ok there will be a chat this sunday (not definate yet) taken by myself which will take off where apoc stops. So ministers post your orders or ghengis will beat you to death with your own shoes.

	03-10-2002 07:48									#3
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The galley on Uber goes straight south till it hits land and gives the settler the boot.

The settler runs straight south till it runs into water, and builds a new city out of frustration.

Hole in Wall packs up and moves out cause the Frenchies smell real bad cuz they don't ever bathe. Moves one tile south where the fragrant aroma from the tasty Italian cooking drowns out the BO smell from France and builds a new city.

Did you get all that?

	03-10-2002 09:43									#4
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Apoc,

Sounds like you won't need any orders from The Ministry. We're working right now on orders for the coming American conflict.

There's nothing urgent that we need to do in 440, though, unless someone agrees to link up that last incense with a colony, then I'd like to either sell it to Rome or trade it (and some gold) to Greece for Education.

--Togas

p.s. If there are plans to build the colony, please PM me and I'll give you an updated set of orders.

	03-10-2002 17:51									#5
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-sorry to interrupt, but where can i find an updated save?

	03-10-2002 17:58									#6
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Nevermind, i found it myself.

	03-10-2002 18:27									#7
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I would like to suggest again a link with the last incense, building a colony. Togas can make a good use of this extra lux.

	03-10-2002 18:33									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Aro I would like to suggest again a link with the last incense, building a colony. Togas can make a good use of this extra lux.

Where would you put the colony at? The cities are already canabalising off of each other. I'd rather see Bacteria move se on tile and Susa ne one tile to better utilize the most tiles.

	03-10-2002 19:32									#9
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The Persians are cannibals?!?

The Holy Banana cannot allow such practices - we must persecute them further!

	03-10-2002 20:35									#10
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb Where would you put the colony at? The cities are already canabalising off of each other. I'd rather see Bacteria move se on tile and Susa ne one tile to better utilize the most tiles.

Togas was asking for one lux more to trade, and I suggested spend a worker on this:

	03-10-2002 21:40									#11
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I am assuming that we are going 5 turns. Here are the orders.
I did put an American attack options, but for the record I urge us to wait until 520, for 3 reasons
1) We will have a peace period to lower ww and thus can switch to republic(i want to be in republic for GA)
2) Sufficient forces will arrive to guarentee an easy victory
3) We could win the war in 1 turn, thus avoiding an unfortunate extra war.

General Notes
1) This plan calls for war with America, I would suggest unless it seems America’s fall is imminent we wait the extra turns for the Knights to arrive. The difference is between 480 and 520, This wait will add 2 or 3 knights to our forces. I would prefer if possible attack with the 2knights at Chicago and 3wc+knights at Boston and then go after New York. My recommendation is an attack in 520, but I leave it to the discretion of people playing the game so I have orders for an attack, just remember it can be delayed. If no attack is launched simply hold forces in attack position until 520.

2) After War with Persians please make sure pikes are in Antioch,Arbella,Contaginon and Tarsus
Also I suggest 1 sword in each of arbella and antioch. Two swords that end up in muncie should be sufficient.

440
1. Knight 1ne of Port of Malignance move ne,ne,ne,n,e, fortify
2. Sword in Bacteria n,ne,n(to muncie)
The forces 1n of Contaginon become Antioch assault force(AAF) this force should be 1sw,1pike,2catapult
3. Knight 3s of Contaginon goto Contaginon then joins other 3knights to form Eastern Knight Force(EKF)
4. Now the EKF(4 knights in Contaginon) moves ne,e,ne(the force ends turn here so ALL forces stay together)
5. Knight in susa moves nw,nw,nw,nw,n,nw
6. Knights in Tarsus Fortify
7. Sword w of tarsus go to Muncie
8. Sword (1/4)on mountain move w
9. Knight 2w of Contaginon go to Contaginon and fortify
10. WC in BHQ move nw,n,nw,n,nw,nw
11. WC on uber move into Boomtown to help police the city(will goto pop 2 next turn and needs unit)

450
1. AAF moves n,w,w(to hill overlooking Antioch)
2. Knight 2w of Contaginon move n,n and join AAF
3. Knight in Contaginon move n,n,w,w and joins AAF
4. The EKF moves e,e to hill s of Arbela
5. Knight 3S of Contaginon moves n,n,n and fortify
6. Knights in Tarsus on Goto to ne,n of Delmonte(6turns)
7. Pike Near tarsus n,ne Fortify
8. Sword(3/5) in Muncie skips turn to recover
9. Pike(5/5) s of contaginon moves n,ne,e
10. Sword(1/4) 2se of contaginon moves to contaginon and Fortifies
12. Sword (3/3) fortifies in Muncie
13. WC(3/3) near Gaia moves nw,nw,n,nw,w,w
14. WC(4/4) in gaia moves w,nw,nw,n,nw,w
15. WC(4/4) in termina move n,n,n,n,nw,n

460
1. EKF attacks Arbela
IF Arbela falls we check peace terms to see if they will give all tech+antioch if not assault Antioch
2. AAF attacks Antioch using catapults first, then knights and then sword if all else fails
After attacks move forces between armies to finish job if battle continues, if war over then send to Delmonte
3. Knight in Contaginon moves based on these two options
a) Battle won in that case he goes to ne,n of Del Monte
b) Battle undecided he goes to the force that needs help most
4. If Antioch Falls move Pikeman(5/5) from Willsbury to Contaginon
5. WC(3/3) se of Chiquita moves nw,nw, Now act based on these options
a) if Chicago still American upgrade this to knight
b) If Chicago falls then return this unit to delmonte and build WCF in Delmonte
6. WC(4/4) w of Delmonte w,nw,nw,n this unit acts on the same options as previous WC
IF option a above is true then these 2units(then knights) movement will be denoted with A in future orders
IF option b above is true then these 2units(then knights) will move to Delmonte and await WC’s from south
7. WC(4/4) s of Gaia go to Delmonte
8. WC(4/4) in Timeline ne,e,ne,n,nw,nw

470
1A. Knights in Delmonte move n,nw
WC in BHQ nw,n,nw,n,nw,nw
1B. All WC near Delmonte go nw,n of delmonte(this is 2 of Boston) (should be 4 WC, this is now called WCF)

480
1A. Knights NW of delmonte move nw,n
1B. WCF attacks Boston(this is a serious gamble 4wc Vs 2or3 spear)
2. WC near gaia move nw,nw,n,ne,n

490
1A. Knights near Chicago move n

500
1A. Knights near Chicago attack Chicago

510
1. Knights arriving Near Del Monte goto American war.

Aggie

Last edited by Aggie on 03-10-2002 at 22:06

	03-10-2002 21:43									#12
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I did this seperate since it not my area, but i think this is important. If we build a temple an muncie when the culture boundaries expand, it will include the incense, due to how the comp does culture borders.
Aggie

	03-10-2002 22:31									#13
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I hate to be the pessimist, but...

My experience with the Aztecs has been that when they are done with one major successful invasion, they move on to the next. If they have large forces around Washington, Boston and New York, and we move in, we may become their next target.

I noticed everyone is (at least) annoyed with us. This doesn't help! Maybe we should be thinking about improving a couple of these relations. Germany, Rome and/or Russia would be nice.

The part I like best about waiting until 520 is that it will show the Aztec's hand. Do we have anything we can send in to scout, to see how much the Aztecs' have committed to this endeavour?

(I hate the Aztecs! They're like a plague of locusts!)

	03-10-2002 23:46									#14
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Bolverk, I have had the same experience, I think though that the logical target for the aztecs are the germans.
But if they try a move south they would just run into our army, then we would get all the cities they took. Maybe we could even try to bribe the germans into the war.
Aggie

	03-10-2002 23:52									#15
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I don't like the idea of signing an alliance with the Germans. It will bind us to 20 turns and we won't be able to sign peace with the Aztecs in the near future without taking a rep hit.

	04-10-2002 00:34									#16
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I'm surprised that there is little discussion about an alliance with the Aztecs against the Americans.

I'm going to authorize an alliance with the Aztecs against the Americans unless someone can give me a good reason why we shouldn't.

Before the alliance is sealed, we will sell the Americans some useless tech to ensure that they have no gold to bribe a possible (although unlikely) ally.

Once America is cleaned up, the alliance will be over, the Aztecs will be friendlier to us, and there will be less potential threat of their invasion into our domain.

Any issues with this?

--Togas

	04-10-2002 00:38									#17
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There's the following down sides to an alliance with Germany vs the Aztecs:

1. After we take Washington (and if Chicago falls to the Aztecs that as well) eliminating the common boarder, where do we send our forces too?

2. We would have to stay a Monarchy for the 20 turn war even if we're not using our forces against the Aztec possesions.

3. If we do continue to use the forces, then if we capture core Aztec cities, both us and the Germans end up with a crazy quilt of cities, that both need lots of garrison units for protection, culture to prevent flips, and have heavy amount of waste and corruption. (At least until the Forbidden Palace is built.)

4. If we instead raze core Aztec cities, then the Germans or Greeks move in and take over that area.

Now if we were confident that the Aztecs would previal in an Aztec - German conflict, it might be possible to double cross the Germans by letting German cities fall to the Aztecs and then we move in and capture them from the Aztecs, but I think it's much more likely that the Germans would have the upper hand.

	04-10-2002 00:39									#18
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I'm a little worried that an alliance with the Aztecs would land us at war with the English. I understand an alliance would not bind us to this, but if they are already at war with the Aztecs, we may make a more tempting target.

Improved relations aside, are there really any advantages to an alliance with the Aztecs?

	04-10-2002 00:41									#19
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I support an alliance with the Aztecs, in the Togas' terms, but I think we need to be quick with this, before they finish America... They can do it, IMO.
Togas, any comments about the incense colony?

	04-10-2002 00:47									#20
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An alliance with the Aztecs will improve our relationship with them and improve the chances that they won't declare war on us next, thus sustaining the Pax Apolytonia which we plan to create.

	04-10-2002 00:47									#21
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I like the incense colony idea a lot. It makes it available now so that we can use it to aquire Education before the end of the Persian war, and possibly get a higher tech from Persia.

--Togas

	04-10-2002 02:15									#22
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yes, ally with the Aztecs... wave your magic wand and let it be done. they will give us money and their WP for it and the Americans can only kick and scream until their other foot is in the grave we helped dig.

	04-10-2002 02:58									#23
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Apoc - CP stuff will be updated this saturday morning. If you wish to use the ugle, hastily produced stuff from last time that I pm'd you (and posted late...), that will work OK. But as you said you are only finishing this turn, can you please not hit END TURN when you are done. That will let me adjust as necessary. Thank you.

Togas and anybody else - Have you considered an aliance with the americans against the aztec? If we let teh aztec take a couple more cities, we can then go to war with them, let them take the amerians and we take them... then when 20 turns are up or the americans are no more (I am not sure on that point, do we still take a hit if our allie is dead?) we make peace. Also, do we take a hit if we sign an aliance and even if we keep the war going, declair war on the americans also?

We have the funds to bribe germany in on our side in this conflict if we decide we need the help and we get in over our heads.

We have lots of options. Lets look at the overall picture and not at the narrow point of just take over the american cities.

NO COLONIES PLEASE. Particularly this one for this little insence. We will loose a worker (Slave) that we desperately need to clear jungle. If we spend a little gold now, we can expand with a temple in 5 turns to have it. My standing orders request any and all temples and courthouses to be purchases, after military needs are met. This can be refined to purchasing one near the incense ASAP, particularly if aggie and you (the other two money spenders) agree. I hate to waste a worker now when at the present rate the insence will be in a city in about 27 turns, without any rush spending.

	04-10-2002 03:13									#24
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RE: Americans
Togas has it dead on - ally w/ the Aztecs, as it will only be for a short time and helps us out in a couple of ways.

RE: Incense
I agree with GodKing - if a temple can help the city expand quickly it would be a waste of a worker.

	04-10-2002 04:16									#25
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Waste a worker???

We can (and have) bought workers from other civs for as much as 11g, usually less. They are exceptionally cheap and easy to come by. We can build them with ease and we have The Pyramids to compensate for the loss of population.

Rushing a temple is far more expensive, and it takes more time to get the culture to expand enough to allow us the use of the luxury.

I really need that extra Incense before the end of the Persian war. My current plan is to use it to buy Education and seize a better technology from the Persian with peace.

--Togas

	04-10-2002 05:08									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Togas Waste a worker??? We can (and have) bought workers from other civs for as much as 11g, usually less. They are exceptionally cheap and easy to come by. We can build them with ease and we have The Pyramids to compensate for the loss of population. Rushing a temple is far more expensive, and it takes more time to get the culture to expand enough to allow us the use of the luxury. I really need that extra Incense before the end of the Persian war. My current plan is to use it to buy Education and seize a better technology from the Persian with peace. --Togas

I've gotta agree with Togas -- we can save LOTS of money (more than the cost of both a Worker and a Temple, probably) by getting another (very new) tech from the Persians (sorry for being vague, but can't recall which it was to save my life), but we can only get that if we pick up education now. Even then, by using the luxury to buy Education, we should save a lot of money on Education as well. As Togas said, Workers are pretty cheep in general -- if we need a replacement badly, the Foreign Ministry could probably make some smaller deal and 'pay' for a new one (assuming Togas is ok with that compromise -- I don't speek for him in this regard) instead of loosing much more money by not connecting the Lux now.

Finally, I think that WhiteBandit has the ultimate decision on this issue, doesn't he? They are his workers, after all...

-- adaMada

	04-10-2002 07:02									#27
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Togas, I support the alliance with the aztecs, it makes good sense.
Aggie

	04-10-2002 17:14									#28
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According to a post by wervdon -(http://www.apolyton.com/forums/show...41&pagenumber=2), an alliance with the Aztecs would casue us a rep hit, becuase of some bug, if a civ is eliminated and there is an alliance against it, it counts as if the alliance was broken and this will cause us a rep hit, so perhaps we should re-consider this idea?

	04-10-2002 20:46									#29
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I reviewed the above thread by wervdon. In that thread, he discovered that if a country he was trading with was eliminated, his trade deal was canceled and the AI considered it as a broken deal.

There's no discussion in that thread, or no evidence posted by anyone, that an alliance against a nation where you both agree to go kill that nation, and you succeed in killing that nation, that you get any rep hit.

Furthermore, E_T has sent me a PM that the Aztecs will sell us Invention for 11gpt (a 20gpt discount) if we go to war with them against America. I'm currently awaiting word on if we can replace invention with Education.

--Togas

Last edited by Togas on 04-10-2002 at 20:56

	04-10-2002 22:49									#30
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I think I will have to lend my support to Togas' idea for the colony. Sorry GodKing, I would like a temple there ASAP also, but I don't see workers as becoming very rare all of a sudden, and anything we can do for techs like Invention is worth it!