04-10-2002 02:54									#31
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Perhaps we can invite residents of our cities along the American border to desingated picnic spots so they can sip tea while watching the battle.

	04-10-2002 03:47									#32
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I say we look and inspect ALL options prior to starting any new wars.

I want to focus on our own development. We are lacking in defence. We have how many markets - ONE, in a city where the persians built it. Many of our cities don't even have a temple, let alone a courthouse, library or cathedral.

Sure, a golden age will help a lot, but we are still lacking. I think we need the american cities sometime, along with the greek, if we are to be victors. But we have to rest a while, change to a better government, and so forth. Time to rearm, refresh, and take a new look at things.

I voted for war, because it doesn't state WHEN. Hopefully it will be after we have done some scouting, and considered any and all alternatives.

Perhaps we can ally with the americans against the aztec, and still gain the cities? The germans hate the aztec (just ended a war) so it shouldn't be too hard to get them to attack on our side.

What about letting the cities fall, and just purchasing a lot of culture in the area?

I have not seen anybody even look at these ideas, simple as they are, let alone say any other ideas than just "move everything there and kill them".

Other idea - sell american tech and iron adn lux and what not to let them defend themselves for the next 20 turns while we organize.

Get someone to attack the aztec while we rebuild, germany and greece just ended a war. England is close and needs to expand. If we bribe someone far away, they will use there money and bribe other civs to join in. The world against the aztec.

IMO the aztec are the only ones we have to worry about with uber isle as they have the lighthouse. Nobody else can sail there yet, at least not til we fill the place up. How does this fact play in our calculations. They may have a settler on the way there right now.

	04-10-2002 03:53									#33
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by GodKing We have how many markets - ONE, in a city where the persians built it.

What's a market?

quote: Originally posted by GodKing IMO the aztec are the only ones we have to worry about with uber isle as they have the lighthouse. Nobody else can sail there yet, at least not til we fill the place up. How does this fact play in our calculations. They may have a settler on the way there right now.

There is only one open city site left on Uber. And its the crappiest one. If AGC builds a settler it will be on the last city site in two turns of movement.

	04-10-2002 04:00									#34
	Get a bigger avatar today!

marketplace.

	04-10-2002 04:31									#35
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I voted for war, but only b'cos they're goners anyway and we don't want Aztecia to get those resouces. We should wait until 520 to declare if we can.

After this, we MUST have peace to build.

	04-10-2002 06:31									#36
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Huzzah GK!

	04-10-2002 09:55									#37
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

GK... war with the Aztecs HAS been discussed and I think most of us who have brought it up uanimously agreed it was horrendously stupid, for just the reasons you bring up about us needing to stop the wars and go to peace. If we go to war with the Aztecs, there's no way to guarantee that we won't be at war for at least the next 3-4 turnchats, even if its only a phony war.

That means we have to put off switching to Republic and, if the war is actually hot with Aztec armies coming at us, then we have to build troops and fight the war rather than building improvements in our cities. So it's a no deal in my opinion, even if we're allied to the Germans.

We want to get those American cities IF WE CAN, but the top priority at the moment is getting these wars OVER WITH so we can concentrate, at least for a little time, on doing precisely the infrastructure development you suggest.

	04-10-2002 10:59									#38
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Kill them, and may it be the war to end all wars At least for a period of 20 turns :P

Oh and don't ally with the aztecs. There's a bug with eliminating civs and it counting as a broken deal. If we ally with the aztecs, and america is destroyed (thus prematurely ending the alliance) it'll probally count against our reputation. I know it will if gpt or resources are involved cause it happened like that in my last game, suddenly no one wanted to trade me for resources or gpt


EDIT: Discussion thread I started on the general forum a few weeks back when it happened to me where others confirmed it is a known bug is here: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=62104

	04-10-2002 18:14									#39
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

wervdon, I've seen your thread in the Civ3-General forum. Intereting stuff...
Are all versions affected by this? What version are you playing?

	04-10-2002 18:30									#40
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

That explains a few of my games...

	04-10-2002 18:32									#41
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

* UnOrthOdOx points out 60 votes so far

That's pretty good, considering our average of late!

	04-10-2002 18:51									#42
	Support Apolyton

Very true, Unortho... I guess a lot of people who normally don't post here noticed and decided to post on this one... think the timing of the Gazette might have had something to do with that?

	04-10-2002 19:00									#43
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Did I write a story on this? I didn't think I did...

* UnOrthOdOx runs to go check


edit: NO, no I didn't. Ok, I guess I can still do the one I was planning for tonight then.

	04-10-2002 19:04									#44
	Suffering from ads?

Yeah, I said "timing" with italics because I knew it musth have been the timing of the Gazette that re-uped general interest in the game (and a thread entitled "War!!!!!!!!" was likely to be the first read )

	04-10-2002 19:59									#45
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Perhaps we should upgrade to 1.29f before we take the last American city?

	04-10-2002 20:16									#46
	Inflate your Upload Space

We don't know yet if that solves the alliance problem. I know for a fact that Firaxis is aware of several bugs that were not fixed yet and only intend to fix them in PTW.

	04-10-2002 20:37									#47
	Suffering from ads?

Perhaps some one can help me. When I posted this poll in the bit where it says how long do you want this poll to last I put 7 days but the poll seems to not have a time limit.

Does anyone know what I'm doing wrong. I'll need to be able to post deadline polls properly for the 12th.

	04-10-2002 20:57									#48
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

What makes you think it does not have a dealine?

7 days from posting will be Octber 10. The poll will not say anything on it about closing until then, when it says 'closed'.

	04-10-2002 21:17									#49
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I play with 1.29f, and the bug is present there. I'm pretty sure its in every version of civ3. Best option IMO, is not to make any long-term agreements with or against america with them about to bite the dust anytime now.

	04-10-2002 21:19									#50
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by wervdon Oh and don't ally with the aztecs. There's a bug with eliminating civs and it counting as a broken deal. If we ally with the aztecs, and america is destroyed (thus prematurely ending the alliance) it'll probally count against our reputation. I know it will if gpt or resources are involved cause it happened like that in my last game, suddenly no one wanted to trade me for resources or gpt EDIT: Discussion thread I started on the general forum a few weeks back when it happened to me where others confirmed it is a known bug is here: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=62104

I reviewed this thread. It's about a situation where a trade deal was broken because the trading partner died. There's no discussion or references to a reputation hit due to acomplishing the goal of an alliance.

Can anyone cite a thread that discusses a reputation hit because your alliance killed your enemy? I've personally never experienced this problem, and I think that, if the above statement is true, it's a horrible bug.

--Togas

	04-10-2002 21:40									#51
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: I reviewed this thread. It's about a situation where a trade deal was broken because the trading partner died. There's no discussion or references to a reputation hit due to acomplishing the goal of an alliance.

Good point, I just assumed it'd work the same, maybe we should test it (no I dont mean play ahead, I mean create a quick scenario) and see what happens.

quote: I think that, if the above statement is true, it's a horrible bug.

I think its a horrible bug either way

	04-10-2002 21:57									#52
	Tired of ads?

In my current game, I elimated a civ while allied against them and didn't notice any rep hits. I was the one paying for it (via a tech) though.

	04-10-2002 22:59									#53
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I think this poll could be deemed invalid.

I am against the war at this time. I think once we move closer to the time of war, that a repoll could be done. However, since its clear that War will win in this poll, there's no point.

	04-10-2002 23:46									#54
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Ok, I made a scenario (in 1.29f of course) to test it with alliances, and it seems the bug with reputation taking a hit for not living up with deals for eliminated civs only happens if the deal is actually with the eliminated civ (not when its an alliance against the eliminated civ), so we'll be ok there.

However, I did notice that my relations in the scenario took a hit when I finished off the target in one turn. The scenario Im attaching is just rome, egypt, and greece on an island. Rome has several tanks and 1000 gold (to make deals with and setup embassies) and some tanks ready to move on the egyptian capital. I made contact with both civs, setup an embassy with greece, gifted them contact with the egyptians, declared war on egypt, and signed an alliance with greece against them for my spices + 10 gpt. Then took out egypt next turn.

I noticed no reputation hit. Alexander was still quiet willing to trade for my spices. I made sure by asking to buy nationalism from them. They would be insulted, I added gpt, and it stayed they would be insulted (not they would never accept like it does with bad rep)

My relations with alexander went from gracious to cautious when I took out cleo.

Attachment: test.zip
This has been downloaded 0 time(s).

	04-10-2002 23:47									#55
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Oh and just to clarify, Im sorry for giving out misleading information, I honestly thought the bug applied in this situation too. Apparently, it only hurts your rep if your deal is with the eliminated civ, not against.
------

Oh and Im still against the alliance based on the fact that we'd rather the aztecs make peace with america before taking chicago and other cities, so why would we encourage them to keep going.

	05-10-2002 00:06									#56
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

wervdon, way to go for taking the initiative.
AFAIK you take a foreign relations penalty when you take out a civ. This always happens in my games.
Regarding the alliance, the Aztecs have no reason to stop, other than war weariness maybe. Personally, I wouldn't count on the Aztecs stopping the war.

Togas: perhaps it would be better to wait as long as possible with the alliance with the Aztecs (until we are about to sign peace with Persia or we are about to attack America, whichever comes first). That way they will sell us the tech (hopefully Education, as you said) for a lower price since it might become known by more civs by then.

	05-10-2002 01:00									#57
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Wervdon & Shiber, when you are allied with a civ aginst another civ, they are usually gracious no matter what they were before for as long as the joint war continues. After the war or alliance is over (which ever occurs first) your relations will be back to normal immedately.

So, I sugest we sign the alliance with the Aztecs against the Americans for a discount for a tech right before we attack them and in addition right before we take the last American city, see if the Aztecs have another tech we can afford at the "Gracious" price before their price goes up after Abe is captured and the Aztecs relationship returns to historical levels.

	05-10-2002 01:19									#58
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I didn't know that. Thanks for the info!

Regarding the alliance with the Aztecs: yes, I agree we should sign the alliance first and then see what they'd take for a tech. One thing though: the Americans will have fewer cities and units as time progresses, and therefore pose less of a threat or rather, less of a difficulty for the Aztec armies. I wonder if this could decrease the discount they will agree to give us for a tech, since they will then need our help in the war less badly.
I was always in favor of waiting for the turn we attack America before signing the alliance with the Aztecs but now I'm having second thoughts.

	05-10-2002 01:25									#59
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by joncnunn Wervdon & Shiber, when you are allied with a civ aginst another civ, they are usually gracious no matter what they were before for as long as the joint war continues. After the war or alliance is over (which ever occurs first) your relations will be back to normal immedately.

That's not true. I've joined military alliances and the civs have stayed annoyed with me. Once my ally was furious. I do think it is a MAJOR positive towards your relations and you get a bigger positive bonus if you actively fight the target of the alliance. I've noticed if I sit on my butt their attitude goes downhill.

	05-10-2002 06:09									#60
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

We can only buy Invention from the Aztecs (for now at least), and we can get it for free from the persian peace deal, but, the persian might have gunpowder, and we could get this instead. It's a risk we'll be taking if we buy invention instead of getting it from persia, although we might hit the jackpot if they have gunpowder. Anyhow, we know they have Music theory (started build Bach's cathedal in Arbela), so getting Education from the Aztecs (if they acquire it before we make peace with persia) will be a safer bet, but then again, it's only if they research it by then. What should we do if they don't, bet on the persia having gunpowder or just getting the gold and WM from the Aztecs, getting Education from greece for the incense plus gold?