04-10-2002 04:22									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer Asher: Great let's all accept this theory that human beings NEED drugs because they are incapable of stable emotion... why did we have no such problems for centuries?

We did have problems for centuries, they're just repeatedly pushed under the rug.

You think suicide is a modern thing only?

	04-10-2002 04:23									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Evil Knevil Go on, demand I rip into him. I can see 7 faults in his last post alone...

Go for it. I want to learn more about it anyway.

I guess this is your field?

	04-10-2002 04:24									#33
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Also whatever happened to going to your priest when things went wrong? What happened to spirituality and people coping with their problems and dealing with them at the source?

Instead our priests are the psychologists... our God and salvation goes by the name Prozac


thanks

	04-10-2002 05:49									#34
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It's not my field, I'm a journalist. It's just one of those things I happen to know (like my extensive knowledge of Byzantine history, computers...) Anyway, as soon as I get my scanner working, I'll try and get some of my more compelling notes.

quote: I just said... something bad happens to you and your logically and consciously feel sad.

Firstly the whole conscious/unconscious dichotomy thing sort of died out in the 1960's. Irrationality, emotion, then 'moved' to the 'limbic system' a brain circuit. However these day’s this has been discredited. Now the brain is far too complex to go into this further, but as far as is known, the only unconscious systems are the old sex/food/water/air type stuff.

Anyhows the logically sad system is not linked to the chemical pathways associated with depression. 'Logically' feeling sad is linked mostly to memory(hippocampus), and amygdala structures in the brain.....

My girlfriend dumped me(memory)---------->? probably some limbic structure--------------> amygdala: "geez, thats not a good thing----->(memory), my girlfriend dumping me is a sad thing.

There are no neurochemicals involved in this. Depression was a more general affair:

quote: Your subconscious releases chemicals to sustain that feeling... just like you can be consciously angry then your body automatically releases testosterone and adrenaline which makes you even angrier.

Wrong! An interaction between memory and emotional processing causes sadness. This is understood clearly.

Adrenaline doesn't directly make you angry, it isn't released when you're angry. It's released during fight or flight. Testosterone is a function of testicles/ovaries, muscles and is not released to cause a change in emotions.

quote: What these drugs do are hamper these chemicals. They blunt out these emotions...

No! The chemical pathways that are affected by these drugs(how they do this is another issue, which I'm too lazy to bring up). The major (understood circuits) are the Dopamine, Noradrenaline, Serotonin tracts. These circuits link up the Cortex with the Basal Ganglia, creating a modulating and processing circuit.

As such, seratonin(for example) produced in the Raphe nuclei at the arse of the brain is slapped into this circuit so that certain information ("such as my girlfriend has dumped me, how sad") is 'processed' properly.

General depression is affected mainly by a deficit in these circuits. Depressed thoughts tend to stick ('bradyphrenia') in the mind.

Damage to these circuits do not necessarily cause compulsive thoughts of worthlessness and sadness to hang around (although this the common symptom in western cultures). Instead sluggishness, (an)orexia, sleep disorders, hallucinations are universal to all depressions caused by chemical deficits. (Western cultures tend to have patients who hate themselves, Eastern tend to 'just' have the sluggishness). Asher, I'm sure you already understand the 'hollow' feeling you get when you're depressed... It feels like an alien body is controlling your basic mental systems..

An increase in neurochemicals caused by taking these treatments does have side effects, but it does get rid of universal symptoms of depression (when they work) and actually get rid of the unnatural 'hollow' and 'detached' effects synonymous with a lack of emotion.

quote: it's ****ed up to think how many depressed people are drugged up by the ****ing psyciatrists who don't give a damn about solving the REAL source problems.

The only drugs that have a sedative (side)effect are the anti-psychotics, which are different story.

'The REAL source' of depression is not understood properly, but rates of depression are identical in every culture across the world, so it is not due to a lack of faith, even if in the West, feelings of worthlessness are more common.


I think I've killed this thread any hows. Let me know if you don't understand anything/want to know more.

	04-10-2002 06:09									#35
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It's overblown.

Depression is not a disease, it's a part of life.

	04-10-2002 06:12									#36
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quote: Depression is not a disease, it's a part of life.

Do you base this on your extensive knowledge of psychology (even though virtually every psychologist/psychiatrist would disagree with you completely), or on your universal experience with every person's conditions in the world?

The answer is neither. Just because you or people you know only get depressed when life isn't going the way you want it to doesn't mean it's the same for other people.

Your attitude is sickening.

	04-10-2002 06:16									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Asher So is cancer, then.

Ok, so "a part of life" is pretty broad.


Cancer isn't a mandatory part of life, nor is it something that happens to everyone, or a part of being human - depression is.

	04-10-2002 06:17									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Osweld Ok, so "a part of life" is pretty broad. Cancer isn't a mandatory part of life, nor is it something that happens to everyone, or a part of being human - depression is.

I edited because I knew you'd go there, but personally I know more people who have been diagnosed with cancer than depression...so...
It also kills more people, doesn't it?

	04-10-2002 06:18									#39
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NIMH...weird.

I agree with Speer that the chemical inbalance thing is overused. Though I would at first probably be grouped with the people he attacked him his first post (though I'm not rich). It was a little more complex than bad parents though.

Anyway, if a few things had just been different I don't think I would have had a problem at all. It is just that when I was grounded from everything and after learning that my parents only had me for a status symbol, I didn't feel like it was worth it to go on. If I wasn't grounded there wouldn't have been much of a problem.

	04-10-2002 06:21									#40
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The problem here, Osweld, is you seen incapable of distinguishing between regular depression ("feeling down"), and disorders like bipolar or dysthymic, etc.

Just regular "depression" is very much a part of everyone's life at one point or another, but very few people ever have to deal with being bipolar and dysthymic. It's actually particularly insulting how you worded your comment.

	04-10-2002 06:22									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Do you base this on your extensive knowledge of psychology (even though virtually every psychologist/psychiatrist would disagree with you completely), or on your universal experience with every person's conditions in the world?

I base it on my own experiences, what else is there to base it on? Hypothesis and theory? I have a brain of my own, and as far as I am cocnerned, I am as qualified as anyone to talk about how it works.

quote: The answer is neither. Just because you or people you know only get depressed when life isn't going the way you want it to doesn't mean it's the same for other people.

I have been diagnosed as having crhonic depression, and I think that I'd fit the description of manic deppresive, aswell. I'm sure there are some people who really do have an abnormal problems with depression, but I think that it's much more rare then what is actually prescribed - much like ADD.

	04-10-2002 06:25									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer why did we have no such problems for centuries?

I believe we have a new candidate for bald assertion man.

	04-10-2002 06:26									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Osweld I base it on my own experiences, what else is there to base it on? Hypothesis and theory? I have a brain of my own, and as far as I am cocnerned, I am as qualified as anyone to talk about how it works.

Well, studies of tens of thousands of people and clinical results of millions of people would disagree with your assessment.

Perhaps you're right and everyone else is wrong, though. Perhaps you know more about the human mind than all those psychologists.

Human minds don't all work the same, you seem to think they do. Just because you've got a brain and know how yours work doesn't mean ANYTHING for how other people's brains works. Likewise, using my own personal experience, I can safely say everyone is actually left-handed.

quote: I have been diagnosed as having crhonic depression, and I think that I'd fit the description of manic deppresive, aswell. I'm sure there are some people who really do have an abnormal problems with depression, but I think that it's much more rare then what is actually prescribed - much like ADD.

ADD is misdiagnosed a lot because parents want their kids to be less hyper and pay more attention in class. That's ENTIRELY different than depression.

In fact, depression is generally accepted to be underdiagnosed because lots of the people who need help don't want help because of the stigma of being on stuff like Prozac, and they're told it's just a phase...

	04-10-2002 06:39									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Asher ADD is misdiagnosed a lot because parents want their kids to be less hyper and pay more attention in class. That's ENTIRELY different than depression.

And I suppose that someone who is depressed would never want to have a scapegoat, an excuse, or just some way of geting comfort and support?

quote: In fact, depression is generally accepted to be underdiagnosed because lots of the people who need help don't want help because of the stigma of being on stuff like Prozac, and they're told it's just a phase...

Yeah, it's under diagnosed because virtually everyone one the planet can be diagnosed with it.

quote: Well, studies of tens of thousands of people and clinical results of millions of people would disagree with your assessment. Perhaps you're right and everyone else is wrong, though. Perhaps you know more about the human mind than all those psychologists. Human minds don't all work the same, you seem to think they do. Just because you've got a brain and know how yours work doesn't mean ANYTHING for how other people's brains works. Likewise, using my own personal experience, I can safely say everyone is actually left-handed.

I'm not trying to say that everyone thinks or feels the same way as me, and I'm not trying to say that I know how people think or feel - I'm telling you what I think and feel, based on my own thoughts and experiences. And, since that I have been diagnosed with clincal depression, and fit the discription of manic deppresive, am I not qualified to talk on the subject?

I wouldn't value a phsycologist's opinion anymore then I would anyone elses, for the same reasons you give above - no one can know how other people think, and they really only have their own experiences to go by.

	04-10-2002 06:44									#45
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Drugs should be the last resort not the first option like they have become for many lazy therapists. We are living in an age when all problems are now solved with a new pill. Really now, everyone does not have a chemical imbalance. For those who do then take your meds. There is no reason to despise people who treat depression without the use of drugs. To each his own.

	04-10-2002 06:44									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Osweld And I suppose that someone who is depressed would never want to have a scapegoat, an excuse, or just some way of geting comfort and support?

There's probably the odd person who does that, but there are many more who suffer silently.

Have you ever been on any real anti-depressants? They're not all fun and games, they have some very real and very serious sideeffects, unlike Ritalin.

quote: Yeah, it's under diagnosed because virtually everyone one the planet can be diagnosed with it.

Are you still confusing regular depression with real depression disorders?

Very few people can truly be diagnosed with it, especially stuff like bipolar, because it's episodic in nature...

quote: And, since that I have been diagnosed with clincal depression, and fit the discription of manic deppresive, am I not qualified to talk on the subject?

Which is it, "chronic" or "clinical"? Is that as specific was the diagnosis was? Sounds like you're part of the ever typical umbrella case.
Clincal depression is, for the most part, caused by a specific series of events in life that will depress you, not necessarily a true disorder.

What medication have you been on?

quote: no one can know how other people think, and they really only have their own experiences to go by.

But when you've got sample sets of millions of people who have done these things, "their own experiences" slowly turn into "collective experiences" so such things can be generalized...

	04-10-2002 06:50									#47
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Thanks for your contribution to this discussion Oswald. I have battled depression for much of my life until the last 10 years or so and almost all of my foster sons dealt with it. It can be easy for some to escape life with a pill instead of dealing with the real world. Like I said, to each his own but your opinion is to be respected. I have never encouraged a teenager to go on meds and they all grew out of it and they learned something in the process.

	04-10-2002 06:57									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln Thanks for your contribution to this discussion Oswald. I have battled depression for much of my life until the last 10 years or so and almost all of my foster sons dealt with it. It can be easy for some to escape life with a pill instead of dealing with the real world. Like I said, to each his own but your opinion is to be respected. I have never encouraged a teenager to go on meds and they all grew out of it and they learned something in the process.

Do you thank God nightly that they didn't kill themselves because you didn't want them to take antidepressants?

Were they truly depressed, or were they typical teenagers?

It's very very easy to dismiss true depression because people think "oh, I was depressed once, I got over it, why can't everyone else?".

It's small minded, and stupid as hell.

	04-10-2002 07:01									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln Drugs should be the last resort not the first option like they have become for many lazy therapists.

For chemical imbalances in the brain, I must disagree with you. I think the very first thing that should be done (after seeking help) is getting a pill (or combination) to correct the imbalance in brain chems. After that, then a person can seek help with the environmental causes (if any) for the depression. Once the person had dealt with that, then they can come off the meds.

Asher is correct, the problem isn't that too many depressed people are on meds, it's that not enough are. People attatch a major stigma to being mentally ill, and they either refuse to seek help, refuse to take medication, or quit treatment far too early.

It's not about just being a little blue. Suicide is caused by depression. Andrea Yates murdered all of her children because she was psychotically depressed. Many people just suffer through life without truly enjoying it. You only have one life. It's a damn shame to spend it depressed.

	04-10-2002 07:03									#50
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It is also small minded to asume that we need more drugs to solve everyone's problems. Why is it important to you that we use more drugs in society? Why do you object that some have solved their problems without them? And many people have killed themselves that were on medication so your point works both ways. Maybe if they stayed off of them they would still be here...

	04-10-2002 07:03									#51
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My roomate produces NO natural seratonin. He somehow managed to survive up to middle school with this, however he was always extremely depressed, extremely unhappy, would never smile, and would never laugh.
He tried to commmit suicide. In the "safe room" he ripped of a wire cage the held the light and tried to use the wire from that to slit his wrists.
You would never know any of this, talking to him today. I laugh with him all the time, and he's got a loving relationship with his girlfriend. The positive changes in his life came after a combination of drugs and therapy.
If it weren't for those drugs that you're so derisive of, Albert Schpeer, he'd be dead right now.
Is that really what you want?

	04-10-2002 07:06									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln It is also small minded to asume that we need more drugs to solve everyone's problems.

Why don't you come back and play when you can read and comprehend people's arguments?

Nobody said we need more drugs to solve everyone's problems, at all. Strawmen by a weak man, nothing more, Lincoln.

There are plenty of people out there who suffer from true depression but never seek treatment for it. Real depression can be treated with drugs with astonishing results. Drugs aren't for everyone, in fact they should be a last resort, but they are a last resort that is available and people who take them shouldn't be degraded like you, Speer, and Osweld try to do (ever so subtlely).

	04-10-2002 07:09									#53
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You didn't answer my questions. Don't you have answers? You seem to object to people who solved the problem of severe depression without drugs? Why?

	04-10-2002 07:10									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln You didn't answer my questions. Don't you have answers? You seem to object to people who solved the problem of severe depression without drugs? Why?

I don't object at all. Where did I object, Lincoln? I didn't answer your questions since you obviously misunderstood the argument so all of the questions were pointless.

People get depressed. Most people should be able to (and are able to) get over it without drugs. Some people have real conditions that render life not worth living or very very hard to live with that are better off with drug treatment.

It's quite simple, really.

	04-10-2002 07:13									#55
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You edited your post I guess so I we really do not disagree. Like I said, to each his own. I have never degraded anyone who uses medication

	04-10-2002 07:14									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln You edited your post I guess so I guess we really do not disagree. Like I said, to each his own. I have never degraded anyone who uses medication

Which post are you talking about?
I've never changed any of my arguments at all. I appended something in the last post if that's what you're talking about.

	04-10-2002 07:15									#57
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There's a difference between being depressed and having depression, I think…

	04-10-2002 07:16									#58
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Well I musthave missed your last paragraph on a previous post then. Where exactly is the disagreement?

	04-10-2002 07:17									#59
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quote: It can be easy for some to escape life with a pill instead of dealing with the real world.

Did it for me. Perhaps that's not how you intended it, but you made it sound like people who take medication are taking the easy way out when they can just deal with it directly.

	04-10-2002 07:17									#60
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Thanks for cllearing that up Asher (about editing your post after all) I was afraid that I needed some medication.