06-10-2002 01:07									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger Damn it, why have you been in a union and I haven't?

The best stuff they send me is the ones claiming Ralph Klein is going to bust the union "next year". They say this every year, actually. Their solution to "save the union" is to vote Raj Pannu(sp?) for the NDP instead.

That's what they used my $10/week union dues for, the bastards.

	06-10-2002 01:16									#32
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quote: Originally posted by frankychan ...this strike is screwing us over BIG TIME...

Not a strike but a lockout, i.e. management has gone "on strike" because the unions won't agree to let management hire non-union labor.

Franky, is Manson Shipping Lines still a monopoly over there? I moved back to the mainland a couple of decades ago because of the high cost of living. Everything had to be shipped in via Manson. I found the only people who could make a decent living in Hawaii were (a) union members; (b) professionals (doctors, lawyers) and (c) families with multiple incomes. Since I was none of the above, I had to throw in the towel.

	06-10-2002 01:20									#33
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"Anyway, like I was saying, Hawaii is basically screwed by this strike and the national news aren't even covering the impact it's causing our state."

You're right. It hasn't been heavily covered. On the other hand, several articles that I have read have discussed the Hawaii angle. People stocking up on necessities, etc.

	06-10-2002 01:49									#34
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Strike/Lockout-same smell in my book.

Zkribbler-sorry to hear that you had to move. But you said is true. Households need multiple income or a lot of income off of one paycheck in order to survive here. Oh, you are correct that Matson Shipping still has their stranglehold of Hawaiian shipping.

DanS-shoot. Didn't get to read any of those articles...

	06-10-2002 05:34									#35
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I support the Union here.

It is a BIG wake up call to those who get loads of cheap crap from an Unstable and largely, Undemocratic Asia. Make toys in Mexico, Europe, Russia. Were too dependant on China and Asia.

I see Wal-mart shelves are getting thinner these days!

	06-10-2002 05:36									#36
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FYI western Canadian ports are closed too I heard.

I dont like Unions..but I also hate companies who rip us off charging 29 bucks for a 19 cent shirt and keep the difference. I hope they suffer as much as possible.

	06-10-2002 05:40									#37
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory I support the Union here. It is a BIG wake up call to those who get loads of cheap crap from an Unstable and largely, Undemocratic Asia. Make toys in Mexico, Europe, Russia. Were too dependant on China and Asia. I see Wal-mart shelves are getting thinner these days!

But...it's not an unstable and undemocratic Asia that just shut down our west coast economy.

	06-10-2002 05:41									#38
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Well an unstable and undemocratic asia WILL shutdown your west coast economy if we continue to feed them.

	06-10-2002 05:44									#39
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It's true that Dockworkers get paid a lot of money. It's also true that dockerworkers have a very dangerous jobs, and are paid well to compensate them for the risk to life and limb.

I see nothing wrong with IT workers being in the ILWA. There have been organizing drives among IT workers for quite some time now, especially in the wake of the tech bubble.

Y'all seem to foget that unions are what stand between the "American dream" and a Third World life style in the US.

	06-10-2002 05:49									#40
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FYI I am against Cheap imports that are essentially de-industrializing the entire Western civilization. If the Union, even if there idea's,fears and goals are different than mine takes a stand and keeps that crap out long enough. Corporations will hopefully smarten up and stop buying that cheap crap from Asia that puts the local guys outta business here. Ill stand with them.

	06-10-2002 05:57									#41
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Faded, take a closer look at what's going on. This economy now runs mostly off 'just in time' inventory systems that are very efficient, but can 'starve' very easily. Components are not being sent to factories, our agrogoods are not being sent out, finished goods are not being sent to the stores, and all this time, companies are hemoraging cash because because they still need to pay their workers.

With the economy as weak as it is, we're not that far from a total collapse in the western states.

	06-10-2002 06:00									#42
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I doubt organized labor is about to let the ILWA lose. They may be weak spineless cowards, but they can't afford to let one of their most powerful unions be crushed.

	06-10-2002 06:17									#43
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Look monk...I hate to break it to you bro. Were going down anyway.

I work for a small company in the serivce Department. We make maybe 30 million dollars in profits a year and have about 150 people on the payroll. Our chief competiters are Kodak\Polychrome. The only reason we can even barely compete now is because our Printing plates are Chrome, Steel and top of the line. Kodak uses disposable plastic Junk made is Asia and sells it cheap as dirt. We make ours here in Racine. As I said we barely compete. And right now, thanks to the Unions. Alot of Kodak's supply is being held up. And there are alot of calls and contracts being made. I see this as a good thing. We were dragging ass until recently. This may have saved my and alot of other guys jobs

America SHOULD BE dependant on AMERICA. Are you understanding my drift? I could care less about the Union's beef. Better people get a taste of what its like now then when China goes on its imperialist rampage.

	06-10-2002 06:37									#44
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I work at a chemical plant in Bayonne. We just laid off six more workers. We are currently losing $300K a quarter not including the customer we just lost worth $1 million in revenues.

We may not see the end of the year.

	06-10-2002 06:41									#45
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Well I feel for you. But right now, this is the best thing that ever happened to us. With the kodak whores who use slave labor to make 9 cent piece of crap, down. People are turning to stuff made in america. Thats good as I see it. We manufacture right here and we get all the compnents we need here in America and some in Canada

	06-10-2002 07:03									#46
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What does it matter if America isn't in industry? What does it matter if we aren't in agriculture? Those are fields for less-developed economies.

As long as we can exist in a world economic community based on free trade and cooperation between management and labor, we'd be fine.

It doesn't matter if industrial jobs are declining in the United States and rising in other countries. If they're better at it, or are willing to do it cheaper, then that's fine. The problems arise when workers are exploited, not when they work for less than us (Bear in mind things like purchasing power or their income).

I'm not down with this, "America needs to have farmers/industrial workers." All that results in is a system of tariffs and other restrictions that keep less developed economies from being able to catch up with us. We need to relax and realize that American labor is simply too well educated to plow fields and manufacture I-beams. Our realms are commerce and research, and other fields that are suited to our strengths.

	06-10-2002 07:16									#47
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Spoken like a true free-marketeer!

	06-10-2002 07:42									#48
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"What does it matter if America isn't in industry? What does it matter if we aren't in agriculture? Those are fields for less-developed economies."


rigghhtt... Just remember that when the only jobs available are deep-frying chicken and waiting tables and maybe if your lucky you can become an entertainer.


"As long as we can exist in a world economic community based on free trade and cooperation between management and labor, we'd be fine."

Pipe dreams...
"It doesn't matter if industrial jobs are declining in the United States and rising in other countries. If they're better at it, or are willing to do it cheaper, then that's fine. The problems arise when workers are exploited, not when they work for less than us (Bear in mind things like purchasing power or their income)."

Actually, umm it DOES matter. Who is going to build our tanks when were alone and at war? Again some people want to make this economy solely a service and finance one. Why? What possible reason is there? What possible advantage does this nation have to gain by having our manufacturing leave the country? Think about it. please. Thats what seperates/seperated America from everybody else. When never had to rely on outside help to keep things running smoothly like, say England or Cuba. You seem to put alot of blind faith into countries like China that somehow, there always gonna be friendly. There always going to want to build toys,electronics, and ****..everything on the crack of a whip. What happens if they said no and just nationalize the cheap Western 2 bit manufacturing operations?? I'll tell you what happens. We lose. Big time and were at there mercy.

"I'm not down with this, "America needs to have farmers/industrial workers." All that results in is a system of tariffs and other restrictions that keep less developed economies from being able to catch up with us. We need to relax and realize that American labor is simply too well educated to plow fields and manufacture I-beams. Our realms are commerce and research, and other fields that are suited to our strengths."

Yaaa right. And since you seem to be the expert on this. You can really see the irony in this. Remember England during the world wars buddy.

It is a matter of NATIONAL security to keep industry, here. In America. This new BS uber-capitalist thought where somehow you make the assumption americans are too good to build there own consumer needs is Crap.

	06-10-2002 07:53									#49
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Just a personal story to sweetin the pot

My Uncle worked for Briggs and Straton in the 80's for about 8 years and was making 21.00$ an hour on the assembly line. The plant closed and in 89' and right now he makes maybe half that being a network maintence Operater for GE department in NE.

Find me a job after 8 years that gets you that kind of money and makes you that valuable? Without a load of college degree's plz. We all know the 21st century College will be totally out of reach for the average joe-blow.

	06-10-2002 09:23									#50
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It was high union wages that turn this country around. High union wages mean more money is in circulation, which means more jobs are created. All sorts of secondary jobs are created by workers getting good wages: construction, because more workers can buy houses; autos; because more workers can buy cars; etc.

Unlike Reagan's voodoo economics, union wages actually do create a trickle down effect. When those jobs dry up and go to Mexico, so do the secondary effects of those jobs. When all the auto factories shut down in Flint, so did housing construction, grociers, malls, etc.

FG is actually being optimistic about the only jobs left being fast food. What, fast food workers are just gonna sell fast food to each other? No good paying union jobs, and there's no one to buy fast food. Not everyone can be in management.

Last edited by chegitz guevara on 06-10-2002 at 20:24

	06-10-2002 09:40									#51
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Faded, free markets won't make everyone in the US fast food workers. Companies only move to 3rd World companies in unskilled labor jobs. Productive jobs don't move to the 3rd World. Those stay in the US. Companies that require high skilled labor and high productivity workers tend to stay in 1st world countries.

Also based on Comparative Advantage, US industry will be just fine. It'll be based on what we are the best in.

	06-10-2002 10:07									#52
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I'm amazed that some forget the good that has come about because of vastly increased trade.

Re this lockout, I view it as a failure on both sides to work something out. It is absurd that 10,000 workers and management are costing everybody else $1 billion a day in business because of their failures. It just ain't right.

Che: Maybe so. But this is the wrong horse to back. Once UAW plants start being shuttered because of lack of parts, the $40,000 UAW workers (of which my brother-in-law is one) are going to start wondering why they have to suffer for their $110,000 brethren.

	06-10-2002 11:44									#53
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Yeah, odds are they can't find people to do arms manufacturing of American quality in other countries. Besides things like that the Defense Department only buys from Americans. I think even the Harriers we bought were manufactured in the States under contract.

I'm talking about widgets here, not F-22s.

	06-10-2002 12:27									#54
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I live in ag country, and the stuff will start to pile up shortly now that the BNSF can't take the unit trains filled w/grain to the West Coast ports for shipping 'round the world. I hope this lockout ends before the grain starts rotting ...

Gatekeeper

	06-10-2002 14:47									#55
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You're lucky there's any grain to rot after the summer we've had...

	06-10-2002 14:51									#56
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Most of your are forgetting that the heads of the unions are corrupt anyways..........(just gotta vent some more)....

These stupid freekin longshoremen are all like "hey, I feel for the people of Hawaii's plight, but I want to make my $10.00 an hour raise work!" You know what? Screw you. (censored version). The COL (Cost Of Living) is so much cheaper over there that ppl over there can live lavishly while we suffer the butt end over here.

Freek the union leadership! They're probably all greedy fat ba*****s anyways. I normally support blue-collar workers but this is just friken ridiculous.

	06-10-2002 16:08									#57
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Franky, this isn't a strike about wages...it's a lock out because the unions won't let management hire non-union labor.

Of course, the really sick joke here is that, if managment were allowed to hire non-union labor, the new employees would probably organize in the next few years anyway. But no union is going to cave in on this point, and it's a ridiculous powerplay for managment to even attempt.

(I realizing that you're just venting over union corruption...elsewise, as VP of my local, I would take personal offense at your claims.)

	06-10-2002 16:31									#58
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Watch it, folks! We have one of them in our midst!

	06-10-2002 19:51									#59
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Oh come on MtG, how could I know, living half way around the world, how much these guys get paid?

This doesn't matteer anyway, since this seems not to be a strike but a lock-out. In that case what I don't understand is what the govt is trying to do: force the unionists to accept non union workers so that the lockout will stop, or force the shipping companies stop the lock-out without any change in the status?

	06-10-2002 20:00									#60
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So far all the government has done is have Tom Ridge (Homeland Security--why him?) call the union before the lockout began. Frankly, the President is being extremely partisan on this, and staying hands off in the hopes that he can woo the Teamsters from the Democrats, rather than simply implimenting Taft-Hartley and really pissing off labor.

DanS, have you talked with your brother-in-law about the lockout? #1, they aren't going to hurt that badly since they'll get unemployment (they'll take a hit, but $1000+ a month for sitting on your arse ain't bad). #2, many union members realize it's the union that got them high wages and that if they don't all stand together they'll all hang seperately.

Sadly, I wouldn't be at all surprised if the union bureaucracies have failed to do ground work building support for the longshoremen before the lockout began.

In any event, this is management's fault. It's not about money or benefits, it's about the union and management wanting to do whatever it wants.

Last edited by chegitz guevara on 06-10-2002 at 20:22