05-10-2002 01:05									#1
	What is the most amazing military victory in the history of the world? Inflate your Upload Space

Im thinking the Greek-Persian war.....every battle in it was 40:1 Persians to Greeks, with a massive Greek victory, anyone have a better one?

	05-10-2002 01:13									#2
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You want single battles or for entire wars?

	05-10-2002 01:22									#3
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In terms of a whole war or campaign, I think you could argue for the Greeks vs. Persians or the Macedonians vs. Persians. Keep in mind, though, that the sources for the numbers of troops involved in those battles are pretty much all Greek, and therefore probably overstate (perhaps by a LOT) the numerical disadvantage of the Greeks. No doubt they whipped a bigger and supposedly more powerful enemy, though.

You could probably also argue for the Mongols. They gobbled up a lot of territory, and everyone that fought them feared them.

For battles there are a lot of contenders.

-Arrian

	05-10-2002 01:22									#4
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Either....every battle in the Greek-Persian war was amazing, so I clumped them together.

	05-10-2002 01:28									#5
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Every battle in the Greek-Persian war was documented by the Greeks. See any post by paiktis if you want to know why that's not a reliable source.

I'd say the battle of Cannae.

	05-10-2002 01:30									#6
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Well, does a battle like Thermopolye count? It was technically a Greek defeat, because the 300 Spartans were eventually betrayed and wiped out, but anytime 300 guys hold off an army of many thousands for days and beat back repeated attacks by the enemy's crack troops, it's impressive.

Marathon was an actual victory for Athens, so perhaps that's a better example.

I'm sure there are some good examples involving the Romans, too, but I'm having trouble thinking of them.

Personally, though, I am always amazed that Alexander the Great (having already conquered a huge empire) marched all the way to India - and would probably have kept going if not for what was essentially a mutiny. The man was nothing if not ambitious. Oh, and he had some pretty good soldiers, too

-Arrian

	05-10-2002 01:51									#7
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I was playing Delta Force 2 the other day... (lots of stuff about how badly I suck at that game, game settings)... In a complete suicide run I made it into the compound, dropped some satchels next to the last 2 remaining buildings, and blew them (and myself) up with only 4 seconds remaining...

	05-10-2002 01:52									#8
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quote: Well, does a battle like Thermopolye count? It was technically a Greek defeat, because the 300 Spartans were eventually betrayed and wiped out, but anytime 300 guys hold off an army of many thousands for days and beat back repeated attacks by the enemy's crack troops, it's impressive.

Same goes for the Siege of Constantinopel

	05-10-2002 01:55									#9
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Roarks Drift was pretty amazing. 4000 impi to 100 Brits. Even with a technology advantage the British achievment was impressive considering the way things happened at Isandalwana just a short while before with 30,000 impi easily beating about 1,000 Brits which shows the tech advantage was not as overwheming as Roarks Drift might imply.

	05-10-2002 01:56									#10
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Agincourt

	05-10-2002 01:58									#11
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Battle of France was pretty impressive. If not for that event the French would not be seen as yellow.

	05-10-2002 02:02									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Ethelred Roarks Drift was pretty amazing. 4000 impi to 100 Brits. Even with a technology advantage the British achievment was impressive considering the way things happened at Isandalwana just a short while before with 30,000 impi easily beating about 1,000 Brits which shows the tech advantage was not as overwheming as Roarks Drift might imply.

You do realize that 1 in 8 of the impis at isandalwana DIED, dont' you?

And that the Bits lost at insandalwana for using tactics which were almost necer used by the British army...

For best campaigners: I'd vote the Mongols.

Best Battle: Cannae. Thousands of lightly armored mercenaries from various countries defeat the Roman legions, who OUTNUMBER them.

Unfortunately, the romans proceeded to raise several more legions, and throughout the war never used more than a quarter (worst estimate; best states a tenth) of potential manpower reserves.

	05-10-2002 02:12									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Well, does a battle like Thermopolye count? It was technically a Greek defeat, because the 300 Spartans were eventually betrayed and wiped out, but anytime 300 guys hold off an army of many thousands for days and beat back repeated attacks by the enemy's crack troops, it's impressive.

There were more than 300 troops. Thats just the Spartans that stayed with Leonidas after the Persians got behind them. It ignores others that stayed and it ignores those that fought the previous days but retreated when they knew the Persians were coming through the pass.

This site gives the Greek forces as 10,000

http://www-adm.pdx.edu/user/sinq/gr...ar2/thermop.htm

This page mentions others that stayed behind. For some reason the Thespians and Thebans get ignored.

http://history.boisestate.edu/westciv/persian/18.htm

This site give 7,000 to 8,000 for the Greeks and only mentions the Thebans as staying.

http://www.greyhawkes.com/blackswor...Thermopylae.htm

	05-10-2002 02:14									#14
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Thermopylae wasn't THAT amazing.... Thermoplyae was a really small chokepoint which did alot to nullyify the Numerical advantage of the Persian army. Then consider the far superior equippment and training of the Spartans and it isn't too suprising they won.

"
Same goes for the Siege of Constantinopel"

Down downplay Mehmet's accomplishment. Constantinople was the greatest defensive fortress in the entire world and had beat back countless attacks against it. In the Hundreds of years since all the fortifications, the city was only taken once(by the Crusaders) and IIRC that was by sea. Credit Mehmet with good skill in applying the newest military technology available to crack the awesome fortress that was Constantinople.

	05-10-2002 02:19									#15
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Well I still stick by Agincourt, perhaps a few hundred English killed to many, many thousands of French soldiers killed...and plus...it was the French

	05-10-2002 02:22									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Faeelin You do realize that 1 in 8 of the impis at isandalwana DIED, dont' you?

They won and the Brits lost almost every single man. Yet at Roarks Drift with about the same ratio of attackers to defenders the Brits won.

quote: And that the Bits lost at insandalwana for using tactics which were almost necer used by the British army...

They pretty much didn't have time for tactics of any kind. They were overrun before they could do much. The whole thing was a botch but the Brits still had the same guns there as at Roarks Drift and Zulus had the same weapons.

Canae was pretty impressive though. There were Roman survivors even though the descriptions of the battle that I have seen gave the impression that there weren't any. Supposedly Scipio had 10,000 veterans of Canae when he took Carthage. Maybe I have that all garbled. Its been a while since I have read anything on that.

	05-10-2002 02:30									#17
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Provost,

Yeah, Agincourt was impressive, but there has to be a discount because of the opponent.

-Arrian

	05-10-2002 02:31									#18
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Oh, without doubt Finnish victory over Soviets in Winter War at the battle of Suomussalmi. Info here.

	05-10-2002 02:33									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Stefu Oh, without doubt Finnish victory over Soviets in Winter War at the battle of Suomussalmi.

Made possible by your alliance with the Nazis.

	05-10-2002 02:36									#20
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Made possible by your alliance with the Nazis.

That is incorrect. During that time Russia and Germany were allies in their conquest of Poland.

	05-10-2002 02:37									#21
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Come oooooon, Doc. You're not even trying there.

I mean, whatever is one's opinion about Finland's co-belligerency with Germany in 1941-1944, Germany's role in Winter War (1939-1940) was limited to stopping Italian weapon shipments for Finland.

	05-10-2002 02:38									#22
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My mistake.

	05-10-2002 02:44									#23
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I could be mistaken, but I could have sworn that Germany sent a few "volunteer" units to help out those plucky Finns.

BTW, my vote goes to Agincourt.

	05-10-2002 02:48									#24
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I've always been partial to the Battle of Yorktown, though the Brits did make quite a habit out of getting their colonial outposts overthrown.

	05-10-2002 02:51									#25
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quote: I could be mistaken, but I could have sworn that Germany sent a few "volunteer" units to help out those plucky Finns.

That was Sweden. Germans didn't do squat in Winter War - well, except for stopping the aforementioned weapon shipments.

Why would have they risked getting to war with SU at this point, when Op. Barbarossa wasn't scheluded to start yet?

	05-10-2002 02:57									#26
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Under the guise of a small number of volunteer units, Germany could have gotten away with it quite easily. Soviet Union at this point, definitely wanted a war with Germany a lot less than Germany wanted a war with them.

That said, even if they did send a small number of volunteers, it probably wouldn't tip the scales much in any event. The Plucky Finns still kicked a lot of ass.

	05-10-2002 03:06									#27
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While we are talking about Finland, why were they the only honest European nation when it came to paying off thier war debts to the US?

	05-10-2002 03:18									#28
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Obviously, you mean of those that actually had war debts. So why do you phrase it as if to tarnish all Europeans with the same brush.

	05-10-2002 03:33									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Felch X Every battle in the Greek-Persian war was documented by the Greeks. See any post by paiktis if you want to know why that's not a reliable source.

Good point .

	05-10-2002 03:36									#30
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quote: Originally posted by monkspider I could be mistaken, but I could have sworn that Germany sent a few "volunteer" units to help out those plucky Finns.

Strictly 'off the record' of course