05-10-2002 19:15									#1
	Our army, to boldly go where... Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I have taken a look at the state of our army--> I don't like it. At this time we have 34 troops and 12 settlers wich makes up for 46 shields devided over 17cities when we become a republic.(cfr first image)

We only know 3 foreign nations and 2 of them want war and the third will probably backstab us before we can...What I mean to say is :"We live in a dangerous world fellow Apolytonians.

As all can see our fleet is pathetic: 3 triremes(one of them is damaged) and 2 in production.We don't have the Lighthouse so we need to stay close to the coast.
(they are represented by the green dots on the images)

At this moment we also have 3 exploring troops: 2 warriors and one horseman.(these are the pink dots on the map images)

The plan I have to offer to make our army great(so they will not be whiped out easilly by barbarian troops from the japanese,chinese or Carthaginians) and our knowledge of the known explored world ever greater is simplesee next posts)

Attachment: troops.jpg
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	05-10-2002 19:32									#2
	A plan to get musketeers and secure our freedom Increase the size of your Attachments

At this moment our army isn't really a tread to anybody...not even those who might want to invade us .

Therefor I suggest to get us to musketeers and gunmen as soon as possible( if the ppl of apolytonia and the science minister can live with it)

We are at this time 6 techs away from gunpowder and the idea would be research
construction->Engineering->invention
build some more warriors and start building WoW Leonardo's workshop...
continue researching
->Warior Code->Iron Working-> Gunpowder
We should make sure to have Leo's finished before we get gunpowder so the moment we get it all our warriors/phalanxes and legions become musketeers(3 3 1)
This would immediatly enhance our army from zero to hero.

There is only 1 problem --> our science rate is 12turns/tech

-->an image from our world with territorial markings:

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	05-10-2002 19:52									#3
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

and as you will see here, (and in the China Report), there may be a war soon between China and Japan.

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	05-10-2002 19:55									#4
	Exploration à la carte? Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Green dots are our triremes.
the green dot with a line through is a damaged trireme--> I suggest to repair it at the place it's now.
The pink dots are troops:
*the one in the chinese territory I suggest to put it back on the trireme and help this trireme with exploration.
*The one in the east is a horseman
*the one in the north a warrior.

there are also 2 circles around 2 cities: this means they are building triremes.

The way they all should explore is shown by the green and pink arrows.

sidenote: the pink color for our troops has no special meaning, it's just easier to see on the map

There are 3 aireas marked in orange wich I would suggest to explore...the number also shows the importance: 1 is most important to explore because this lies partially inside our territory and it conseals the border of the continent((s)?) where the Carths and Japs live(I would like them as far away as possible.)

The pink cross shows the location of a settler...maybe we should build a stronghold in that airea so we can controll it(and the chinese) beter. Where it should be build exactly is a job for the expansion minister but My suggestion is to build something in that airea.

And now the final point:
I want more explorers...
3 exploreing units for an empire of this size is hilarious.
the only question is What will we use to explore?
Warriors-> build quick,only move 1 square and cost 1 shield under Rep
Horsemen and elephants-> have 2 movement and a beter attack but also a higher cost and they need 1 Shield support under Rep
Explorer-> moves 3 squares but high cost no attack and no real defence and still needs 1 shield support
Diplomats-> high cost(same as explorer) 2 movement, can bribe/sabotage/establish embassies/.. has NO shield support

When I look at this list my priority would go to diplomats since they don't need support under Republic(wich is the way we are going)
Explorers would come last on this list because they only can explore.

I think that's all... any questions-> please ask
You have 3 days to vote.

Shade

Exploration-image

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	05-10-2002 20:02									#5
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I see that already 2 eager ppl voted on the pol...before they even saw the entire plan

The war between the Japanese and the chinese has the same probability as war between us and the chinese: both are peace-treaties...but somehow I think we will be the ones with war and not the Japanese...
(We are number one on the power-scale)

Shade

	05-10-2002 22:13									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

the last administration (before a self exile to an island populated by beautiful amazon women) was preparing us for democracy. The next step in the plan was downsizing the military.

and to quote cavebear from the campaign thread

quote: 2. I am defensive-minded, and that is what the citizens have decided they want. 3. I know how to get into Republic successfully.

quote: The biggest obstacle to Republic is shield stagnation. As it stands, we have military units that use up shields in Republic. I will avoid that by reducing each city to 2 units (unless they are enough support more), but having the most modern units available for defense in each city.

it appears, from my point of view anyways, that the government has no clear policy set as of yet.

	05-10-2002 22:21									#7
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If we're going to the stars via Rep/Demo, we will be very limited in our homeland troops. That means we should definitely maximize defensive points with the few troops we can allow ourselves.

Being first to gunpowder is definitely attractive, but I think we should consider Pikemen as good, cheap defenders.

After we get happy with Mikes, concentrate our research on trade arrows and our production on camels.

Agree with the Shade-thought on diplomats to explore.
Triremes can be used to deliver explorers and trade caravans, but must be limited in number due to possible happiness issues.

	05-10-2002 23:44									#8
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	06-10-2002 03:15									#9
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I don't think we are likely to be attacked soon, unless the landmass Leon is on is shared by another Civ. The AI doesn't like attacking over water until later in the game (and not much then, either). Land connections always get you attacked. The Chinese and Japanese are sure to go at it again soon unless we initiate hostilities.

But I agree that our military forces are not very good. We need better defensive units, and we need some offensive ones. A Pikesman and an Elephant in each city would be good for quite a while, and would not overly burden us as a Republic.

We have the Elephant tech; we can steal the Pikesman tech. Aside from that, I think we should focus on production and happiness advances for a while.

	06-10-2002 15:56									#10
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quote: Originally posted by H Tower the last administration (before a self exile to an island populated by beautiful amazon women) was preparing us for democracy. The next step in the plan was downsizing the military. and to quote cavebear from the campaign thread it appears, from my point of view anyways, that the government has no clear policy set as of yet.

1) please mind I'm not saying we should expand our army now(the extra units are for exploring only...personally I would use Diplo's for that but I don't want to hold ppl back for voting to explore with warrior/horsemen/...)
2) IIRC cavebear is president and not military advisor?

quote: If we're going to the stars via Rep/Demo, we will be very limited in our homeland troops. That means we should definitely maximize defensive points with the few troops we can allow ourselves. Being first to gunpowder is definitely attractive, but I think we should consider Pikemen as good, cheap defenders.

quote: But I agree that our military forces are not very good. We need better defensive units, and we need some offensive ones. A Pikesman and an Elephant in each city would be good for quite a while, and would not overly burden us as a Republic.

I agree with this idea but if you take a look at our current army this would mean that we have to build all those new pikemen and elephants ie resources we could be using to build caravans would now be lost on units.
On the other hand if we go for gunpowder(steal 2 techs from the japanese +invent 4 other) and build Leo's we get instantly musketeers(no building needed from our side)--> good defence and attack and to be honest from that moment on it will be easy to maintain a strong army without building another unit for a long time(auto-upgrades )
This is the reason why I set up this plan.


Shade

	06-10-2002 16:14									#11
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The only defence we need are a couple of pikes and cats on our east coast, but it would be a lot easyer just to patrol the waters of the Jap coast and just kill everything that leaves the harbour.

And off course we can always bribe Japanese (or even cheaper) Chartagian units, these wont cost us any upkeep and we dont have to steal warrior code/iron working this way.

	06-10-2002 19:49									#12
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by shade 2) IIRC cavebear is president and not military advisor?

Just expressing my opinion as a Citizen... and as the previous Minister of War...

quote: I agree with this idea but if you take a look at our current army this would mean that we have to build all those new pikemen and elephants ie resources we could be using to build caravans would now be lost on units. On the other hand if we go for gunpowder(steal 2 techs from the japanese +invent 4 other) and build Leo's we get instantly musketeers(no building needed from our side)--> good defence and attack and to be honest from that moment on it will be easy to maintain a strong army without building another unit for a long time(auto-upgrades ) This is the reason why I set up this plan. Shade

Oh I agree about getting Leo's for the auto-upgrades, but researching 4 techs will take a while. Meanwhile, 7 cities have only 1 unit, so they need a 2nd anyway. I was just describing an ideal offensive/defensive combo for us for the immediate future. I don't want us to waste shields building units we don't need.
Anyway, it looks like our tech course is going to be Philosophy --> Monotheism (Mike's) according to the Science poll.

	06-10-2002 22:54									#13
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quote: Originally posted by shade 2) IIRC cavebear is president and not military advisor?

exactly, that means that the people support his ideas, they voted for him after all and made him president

	07-10-2002 16:38									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by H Tower exactly, that means that the people support his ideas, they voted for him after all and made him president

luckily no-one voted to make me minister of War

quote: Just expressing my opinion as a Citizen... and as the previous Minister of War...

And of course I respect that opinion ...

to make my orders a little more transparant for you H Tower(and every-one else)
Wich the statistics like this my suggestions would be something like this:

*Ask the minister of science to squeaze in the science plan for gunpowder(after we get monotheisme(or inbetween if we can't go for monotheism immediatly))
*Let the triremes and troops explore as planned
*Build new diplomats as explorers and deploy them for this cause
*Build more triremes

quote: but researching 4 techs will take a while.Meanwhile, 7 cities have only 1 unit, so they need a 2nd anyway.

--> I would rather opt for troop relocation(if possible) We already have to 'much' troops(if I have to believe some ppl ). I know 4 tech might take some time(20-25turns??) and everybody we know is hostile towards us...a second unit could also be a diplomat...but since our treasury is almost empty......I'll think about it and will try to send you the best solution in my official report.

Shade

	07-10-2002 18:07									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Perhaps you know my position towards military and defence from my former posts and that I tried to show you the potential danger the other civs going to backstab us so we need to build up our military. Unfortunately I was overruled. Now after a nice change in the office of the MoW I see other people recognized the thread as well.

Of course we have to go as soon as possible to musketeer and defend us as good as possible. I like the idea in combination with Leo as our military hardware will be up to date. Furthermore we have to expand our well you can't really call it navy to speed up the exploration and transportation process.

At least I think the Diplo is the best scout. He is fast and when he encounters some foreign units he bribes them. This way we can conveniently increase our army and they will cost no upkeep if they are far away enough.

	08-10-2002 22:56									#16
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OK for diplos scouting : teir only lack is they are not able to catch a barb leader if they encounter one !

The map posted by Shade shows a barb city oversea !
It may be easy to bribe it to have a new city along the shore !

	09-10-2002 01:04									#17
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quote: Originally posted by JCP The map posted by Shade shows a barb city oversea ! It may be easy to bribe it to have a new city along the shore !

Like the idea just some minor details:
1) to bribe one needs money( 8G is the entire treasury)
2) this would give us a city close to the Carthaginians(with whom we are at war) who are allied to the Japanes(who also hate our guts and live on the same island)--> it would have to be a fortress because it would most probably be 90% of the time under attack
3)we want a republic, each new city creates more unhappines.


--> although it's tempting...I'm affraid it might not be wise.

Orders are send to our beloved president.

Shade

	09-10-2002 03:32									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I agree that it is tempting, but also that we should leave it alone (for now, anyway). Let the Carths and Japanese attack it and use up troops while the AI keeps replenishing the Barb city defenses. That's almost as good as us having it, but at no cost or threat of attack to ourselves.

	09-10-2002 03:48									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by shade luckily no-one voted to make me minister of War

i don't remember much of a campaign or any campaign promises where we got to hear your plans for conquering the world

	09-10-2002 14:06									#20
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quote: Originally posted by H Tower i don't remember much of a campaign or any campaign promises where we got to hear your plans for conquering the world

Maybe that's because there are no plans to conquer the world

...let's see what our president cavebear did with all the advice

Shade
[edit]typo due to bloody qwerty-keyboard [/edit]

	09-10-2002 22:38									#21
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quote: Originally posted by shade [edit]typo due to bloody qwerty-keyboard [/edit]

So, use a AZERTY keyboard !

	10-10-2002 12:42									#22
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quote: Originally posted by JCP So, use a AZERTY keyboard !

I normally use an AZERTY but here at uni we only have QWERTY...

Shade

	10-10-2002 21:58									#23
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quote: Originally posted by shade I normally use an AZERTY but here at uni we only have QWERTY...

Amazing
That is to say "Wallons" type with AZETY kbd and "Flamands" with QWERTY ones ?

	10-10-2002 22:49									#24
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nope here in flanders a normal keyboard is AZERTY (only those at uni have Qwerty as far as I know...--> did you know they have a lot less characters then an AZERTY, it's amazing(and sometimes a pain )
I think our friend "les Wallon" certainly use have to use azerty --> é,è,ç try to find these on a qwerty


Shade