06-10-2002 09:37									#1
	Oh man...not again!!! Enter the AD-FREE zone

Standard/8 Civs/Full Random

Looks like fate will repeat itself! I draw Persia again and get a great starting location. But as with my other game, quarters are tight and civs are everywhere. I have communications with 4 of the AI civs but can't seem to reach the other three because I keep getting kicked out of other civ territory. I have Immortals everywhere again and 7 cities. Since space was tight, I declared war on my nearest opponent, Hiawatha, to the east, and took him out, taking one city and destroying the other two. But there was a problem...

Barbarians!!! Unlike the last game, these guys are running rampant. They must be on Raging because I can not get a break! I'm cranking out settlers as quick as I can to eliminate the risk of barbs showing up.

To the west is open land, so if I am quick enough, I could populate it rather quickly. Defeating Hiawatha put me right up to 2nd in score(I was 5th). Egypt and China are outexpanding me and it looks like this game won't be so easy to win. It's already almost AD and I am in big trouble power wise. My empire is spaced out because of lakes and the wacky map generator..LOTS 'O Mountains!! Gonna try to keep Egypt and China on my good side. Japan is in the NW corner with 5 cities, Egypt and China both have at least 7. Rome is being quiet with 4 cities. Although these numbers could be wrong because I've seen galleys all around me.

This is not going to be easy. But if I win it's four in a row. I need the Great Library to keep pace. I have a steady stream of gold comin in and luxuries/temples to keep everyone happy. My military consists of all Immortals and Warriors, but the total number is below 20 altogether. So, if Egypt or China decide to invade me, I could be in deep doo-doo. Will keep you guys posted

	06-10-2002 11:04									#2
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Now that sounds like fun!!!! Immortals rock. You know you can eliminate barbs by keeping all territory visivle (i.e., no fog).

Post a save...

BTW, you gotta start AU!

	06-10-2002 18:31									#3
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My first two games with 1.29 I had real trouble with the barbs. I was fighting wars so I couldnt expand/patrol the unconquered territory. It made the game much tougher.

	06-10-2002 19:28									#4
	Got spare money?

Rampaging barbarians can make things tougher however if you can get a view of all territory near you( you actually on need to see the coast as new settelments seem to be planted by ships) then only the AI will have to deal with this. What I find best is to send a few attackers towards the coast and keep them patrolling. When they find an encampment sack and you get 35 gp. Just don't let them sit or out come barbarian horsemen.

	06-10-2002 21:50									#5
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Barbs are like the Antarians in Moo2. They are fun for a while and then just seem to be annoying. I think you typoed the encampment, its 25 gold.

	06-10-2002 22:43									#6
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 I think you typoed the encampment, its 25 gold.

Correct.

	07-10-2002 02:54									#7
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Ok, I'll post a .sav of it, hopefully it'll work this time LOL.

Yeah it is a fun game. After winning by Domination on the last one, my outlook for this game might be set too high, as I was leading the last one since the very beginning. I was already in Middle Ages, now, I'm not even out of ancient.

I know about keeping the fog of war away, but with the Iroquios war, my troops are/were out of position

Theseus, I know I've seen and heard of that before but what is AU? I was just up all night and I need a reminder LOL

Here's the .SAV

Attachment: persia-mark1.sav
This has been downloaded 2 time(s).

	07-10-2002 06:03									#8
	Tired of ads?

What's really brutal about raging barbs is those 24 horse stacks that appear early on before you have discovered all open land. It requires u to have multiple defensive units in border cities to guarantee they wont be sacked.

It would seem that expansionist civs would be better for these type of games for this reason...i'll have to try it.

	07-10-2002 07:00									#9
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Well, this game was over quickly.

I gave Cleo a demand for a tech that she wanted(Mathmatics) and then asked her to remove her troops that were flooding my territory. She had the Settler Runs if you know what I mean.

So, she declared war on me and two turns later brought Rome in on the fun. I destroyed three of Cleo's cities and took one. Rome took three and Cleo took three. I was decimated down to my capital. So, fearing a VERY bad score on the HoF, I gave up. I got my a$$ kicked LOL

	07-10-2002 07:54									#10
	Remove this text

I peeked at the 310bc sav and this is my perspective.
Research - I would prefer to go down either Monarch or Rep asap, skipping Map. This land is big enough to hold me for awhile. I would go for rep and skip monarch, but that is just me. I am used to not having religous and so do not want to switch, but once.
Susa, I would drop the courthouuse and make a horsemen, same in Antioch (drop barracks for now), Pasargarde also makes a horsemen.
I can not determine what action to take as I see an egptian warrior with 8/8 and an Immortal as 8/8 so I do not know what to make of that. I mean I did not see any mod msg at load up, maybe that is only for scenarios?
Never mind on second look, I will switch all to units of one type or another and go for termination of egypt. I just can't have them on top of me this early.

	07-10-2002 07:55									#11
	Tired of ads?

Knight, at what time in the game did that happen, what year? Any sav?

	07-10-2002 08:03									#12
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Knightblade pDM Theseus, I know I've seen and heard of that before but what is AU? I was just up all night and I need a reminder LOL

Check the Strategy forum... we have been playing an ongoing series of games for mutual betterment. You'd like it.

	07-10-2002 11:13									#13
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

It was just a few turns after I posted that .SAV..Cleo demanded a tech..I gave it to her, she went from Annoyed to Polite, I asked her to leave my lands and she got POd LOL

I was just looking at my autosaves, and it goes back to 230 AD, which is around the time of the egyptian war.

As far as the HPs go, yeah it was a mod. HPs for units are 2, 4, 6, 8 respectively. It's my own mod with changes from both here and at CFC. Swordsmen go to Knights, Man-O-War are available to all civs, corruption on all levels is 75%..things like that. I load my mod up as a scenario

Theseus, thanks, I'll take a look at it

	07-10-2002 18:34									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Knightblade,

The mods are a major disfunctional problem when you are still trying to learn to play the game. It also continues to demonstrate a lack of respect for the people who might be able to help you. Either stop it or reveal your mods first or you will get classified as the "Cry wolf" category of player. I have already sort of moved you into this category since this is strike three for you in this behavior pattern.

In this case, the swordsman upgrade to knights is a severe bad idea and disabling the corruption functions effectively neuters your ability to figure out how to play the game.

The difficulty level that you play the game on is more important than most of your other information because this significantly effects the cost factors for your opponents. If this was a Chieftain or Regent level game there was no real excuse to be so abused in the early game.

	07-10-2002 18:45									#15
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Oh man...not again!!!

Yes AGAIN Knightblade withholds infomation. Again he doesn't say he modded the game.


STOP THAT.

If you want to play a modded game its your choice. Cracker seems a bit over the top on this. BUT don't ask for help, at least without telling people you modded the game. Its inconsiderate.

	07-10-2002 19:15									#16
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Jesus!!!!! Cracker, about my mods, get off your soapbox and live with it.

As for posting, fine, I'll be plain and boring and just post unmodded games from now on.

Classify me all you want to I don't give a damn. BTW, I'll shove my behavior pattern you know where

If I get banned for this..fine..I'm sick of being told by almighty cracker how to act around here about mods.

Long live my mod!!!!!!!

	07-10-2002 19:32									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Knightblade pDM Jesus!!!!! Cracker, about my mods, get off your soapbox and live with it. If I get banned for this..fine..I'm sick of being told by almighty cracker how to act around here about mods. Long live my mod!!!!!!!

Your not going to get banned for it. Cracker has no authority here anyway.

It still bloody inconsiderate not to mention it.

	07-10-2002 20:17									#18
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Look guys, I do grasp the concept of gameplay, tis the reason why I've won 4 in a row before this. The map generator created a god awful place and my workers(unautomated) kept getting run over by barbs. The only reason I lost was because I demanded that Cleo get out of my borders. I had no army whatsoever because I was trying to outborder Egypt via culture because I did not want to get into a war that early with her.

As for my mod, if you guys want me to post it in the Files forum I will. I have to go through it again to remember just exactly what I've changed. It really wasn't much, just modded units and some general settings.

Sorry about the outburst, but I'm just tired of being run over by people telling me what not to do in this game.

	07-10-2002 22:04									#19
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Okay guys, my mod is now available for download if anyone wants to check it out and make whatever changes they feel necessary

	07-10-2002 22:06									#20
	Increase Your PM Length

Knight those are part of the problem, but two things that are concerns is 1- you had ai units go through your land. This is a no no when you have unsettled areas as they tell everyone and want to send settlers in. 2- you have one civ all across your border and on your right flank. What this means is that you will have a huge front and be hard pressed to defend, when you want to trim them some. I would not have allowed them to get on my flank, if I can't stop it then I lose. I am not sure if the game could be save at the point you posted or not, but if it could it would require all towns to make units and time the attack asap. I did launch and razed 2 cities just to see what was what. I would have tried to run my cities from coast to coast and not allowed anyone to cross the border with all that land behind me. If you were seen as strong they would have not crossed it and you would not have to go to war (best). Then you could back fill at your own pace. No way would I have automated workers until RR's are nearly in place. The higher the level, the more you can not afford it.

	07-10-2002 22:06									#21
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Knightblade,

I don't mind edits, but if you are making changes from default that have a major impact on play, these should be noted when you first post your request for advice. It is both considerate to other posters and better use of all our time. None of us want to make a suggestion and then get it killed because we didn't know there were big changes in default settings. Note the issue is not changes from default, but rather not knowing up front.

I would suggest revising your HP for units. Yes it is neat to have nice HP for vets and elites, but at the same time you are reducing the defensive bonuses of cities/town/etc. Is this really what you want? The game is already slightly schewed towards offense to keep game fun for player. Doubling the HP at first sounds like fun, but may hurt play.

In some of my recent games I gave in to AI extortions because I was not ready to fight. It is hard to fight both culture and military at the same time. Key is to learn not to be trigger happy. Make the time of conflict when it is best for you.

Why did you increase HP of military units? To reduce value of defenses or for other reasons?

You might find my HP mod fun to play. I only increase the Elite by 1 HP. Reason is to give a bit more advantage to military experience by fire. I still lose a lot of elites, but I don't have to coddle them as if they were babies.

Just don't give up posting, it is always interesting to hear a different approach to this game.

-- PF

	07-10-2002 22:18									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Knightblade,

Don't over react or miss the point.

It's your game and its your life. Play both of them the way you want to.

The only issue for me is the modifications that distort the way the game plays and then either ignoring them or deliberately ommiting them when you post the attention seeking threads. The difficulty level you play on and the mods you make to the game will impact game play, end of story. What you do in these situations may need to be different than in circumstances for a standard game on a different difficulty level.

Nothing you post provides any indication that you really understand how the game plays and the crossover upgrade of swords to knights directly conflicts with this assessment. Not being able to remember what mods you have made and not keeping some sort of minimal readme file to help you decode these changes is also a strong negative indicator. You said it, not me.

Your "mod" is probably a hodge podge of poorly tested and undr thoughtout changes that do not alter the gameplay in a coherent pattern. This is the nature of all the random scattershooting mod changes you see and read in the forums. It is not a black mark on your record at all, but it just reflects that most mod changes are crutches designed to compensate for short comings in the strategic play skills of one person or another. It's hard to define a well thought out modification to features of the standard game and still pretend that the game will play well. The AI opponents just cannot incorporate 9 out of 10 of all the proposed changes.

All that said, mod away to your hearts content. You will then have a different game that you might like better. This will move you away from games where you can emphasize the human side of the game by comparing results with others and seeking new challenges. Any dunderhead can mod the game to make nukes available from turn 2 of the game at the cost of a worker and then you can just slam away at all your opponents until the world bleeds orange if that's all your after.

	07-10-2002 22:32									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Yes indeed vmxa, I went back into the autosaves before the war and did things a little bit differently. I knew that was a bad game from the get go and I guess I was still up in the clouds about the earlier domination win that I had with the Persians. You're right, that was a massive front line, mostly due to the fact of the war with Hiawatha. My cities were too spread out and my empire was just everywhere. Cities undefended, not enough military..ugh what a horrible game.

I've already started a new game, unmodded with the Romans on a standard/8 Civ/Full Random/Regent map. My nearest enemies are Japan, Egypt and the Zulu. I'm six techs ahead of everyone else, it's not even 400 BC yet. I have the strongest military and the largest empire, roads are built everywhere. I have 11 cities and all are flourishing.

But I will be starting a game with my mod(check sig ) tonight to see how good I do. I always try to keep two unmodded games and two modded games going at one time so I learn faster

But I have learned A LOT from you guys. I just won four in a row which I've never done before thanks to cracker's and Theseus' advice. The problem with me is that I modded the game two weeks after I bought it(saw a mod somewhere that I wanted to try) even before learning the default rules. That led to me removing the game out of frustration. But now this is the only thing I play, so I've gotten better. My mod is available now(took out the swordsmen--->Knight upgrade) so if you guys want to get the idea of what I'm doin, go get it

Thanks everyone. I just have a tendency to over-react when I feel I'm being belittled or insulted LOL

	07-10-2002 22:43									#24
	Get a bigger avatar today!

About the HP, I see a lot of mods that go up to 10 HPs for Elites and had the people say it doesn't affect gameplay or unbalance defensive bonuses. So I figured why not give it a try yanno? So, I put it up to 2, 4, 6, 8 accordingly. I did lose a lot of elites, but not as many with the default system. Do you think I should just reset it?

	07-10-2002 22:51									#25
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Knightblade pDM About the HP, I see a lot of mods that go up to 10 HPs for Elites and had the people say it doesn't affect gameplay or unbalance defensive bonuses. So I figured why not give it a try yanno? So, I put it up to 2, 4, 6, 8 accordingly. I did lose a lot of elites, but not as many with the default system. Do you think I should just reset it?

I also have seen a lot of variation on forums. I tried one game with 2-4-6-8, and it changed the ancient era warfare so much I didn't care for it. I quit the game early. I play with 1.2.3.5 so there is a real advantage in creating elite units. Of course I hate seeing AI elites coming to my vets. Just like the way it makes me pay attention to the experience of units. When I play without the elite bonus of 1HP, warfare becomes much more of a raw number vs number game.

I would just suggest give it a try. If you don't like it, reset. But since you like editing units HP, thought you might enjoy this variation of the game.

-- PF

	08-10-2002 01:51									#26
	Got spare money?

Thanks PF, I will give it a try.