07-10-2002 02:33									#31
	Got spare money?

Damn, that's beautifully said, it could've been the voice-over for Trainspotting II.

Unfortunately, there's no truth behind it.

	07-10-2002 02:39									#32
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Kaak However, today is seems such drugs are used as an escape from reality more often than because they are actually needed.

1. These drugs are hardly an "escape from reality." Prozac is not cocaine, zoloft is not heroine, etc. In general, taking psychological medication when it isn't needed will make matters worse, not better.

2. What are your sources for your claim here, anyway? How many psychiatrists have you spoken to who have said "Oh, whenever people come in here feeling a bit depressed, we just pump them full of happy pills"? Or how many people have you talked to who have said "Whenever I'm feeling blue, I just pop a couple of Prozacs and float away into dreamland"?

	07-10-2002 02:42									#33
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

loin, you obviously don't know much about baylor...half the girls here take their mommies prozac or zoloft when they aren't having a great day...

	07-10-2002 02:47									#34
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Kaak loin, you obviously don't know much about baylor...half the girls here take their mommies prozac or zoloft when they aren't having a great day...

They're welcome to it, then. Most psych medications have to reach a certain blood concentration level before they start to kick in -- for the stuff I used to take (Depakote and Prozac) it would take a full week before a change in my doseage actually produced any tangible results, and it would take a full month before my blood concentration had levelled out. (Incidentally, the slow effect was the reason that I had to stop taking psych medications -- a particular severe bout of mania or depression would completely overwhelm the effects of the medications, and by the time the medications had been properly adjusted it would be too late for them to do any good.)

	07-10-2002 02:50									#35
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Whilst I agree in the main with those who say it is not a matter of willing something to be so, I am inclined to subscribe to the power of positive thinking.

If for no other reason than the placebo effect. Make someone think they are being treated and they get better. Obviously drugs are far more effective than placebos, but placebo does work in many (but by no means most) circumstances. (I'm thinking of hypochondria as an example)

	07-10-2002 03:05									#36
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Kaak bugs, as with all medications, there are those rare individuals who need them. However, today is seems such drugs are used as an escape from reality more often than because they are actually needed. Poor little rich girl isn't having a great day, and mommy gives her some of her zoloft. Then all of a sudden she thinks she needs it. Point is that it seems that people always want to take the easy way out. Suck it up a little and take control.

I'm sorry, I didn't quite catch where you got your degrees in psychiatry, psychology, biochemistry, and internal medicine.

Somebody give this dope diabetes. I'll enjoy seeing him suck it up... right into a coma.

	07-10-2002 03:08									#37
	Full PM-box? Change here!

kepler, like i said, i acknoledge the fact that some people need medication. However, I think far more use it, and become dependant on it than actually needed it in the first place...

	07-10-2002 04:55									#38
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

If we aren't affected by chemicals, then why would taking pills matter at all? Even drugs like LSD wouldn't have any affect on us. They are after all just chemicals, which you seem to think don't affect us.

quote: However, I think far more use it, and become dependant on it than actually needed it in the first place...

"I think" isn't very valid evidence either Kaak. Give us some source of numbers to look at that supports your position.

	07-10-2002 06:12									#39
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Aeson, "i think" is valid enough to support the tangent. That was not the point of the post anyway. Let me clarify with an example or two.

1. Chapstick: People use chapstick all the time. Dependancy on chapstick propogates itself. Lips actually become physically addicted to it. The chapstick provides moisture, often too much, so the lips think they need to produce less. After a while, you do actually need the chapstick, because you made yourself dependant on it.
The brain, and the chemicals in the brain work much the same way. That is why Marijuana messes with long term dopamine levels in the brain.

2. *Back to the point of the topic* My car got hit by a drunk driver last saturday. It was parked on the curb, minding its business, and not offending anyone. All of a sudden, someone comes a long and hits it. I didn't see it happen, and the guilty party was gone when i arrived. Classic hit and run. Now, when i saw this, i did not let it ruin my month, my week, or even my night. Granted, it kind of sucks, and it is going to cost me a lot of money to get it fixed, and it hasn't even been 6th months since the last time i got hit by a drunk driver. But hey, these things happen. I chose to keep a positive mind set. And you know what? It wasn't all that hard...

	07-10-2002 07:01									#40
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Kaak *Back to the point of the topic* My car got hit by a drunk driver last saturday. ... I chose to keep a positive mind set. And you know what? It wasn't all that hard...

Is that the topic of this thread? "I'm better than all of you turd burglars whose brains don't properly regulate their seratonin/dopamine levels"? You must be awfully proud of yourself for having chosen not to have a genetic defect, Kaak.

Depression is not just "feeling sorry for yourself" -- I call that "moping" or "throwing yourself a pity parade." Depression is "not being able to feel happy, being miserable for no good reason." F'rinstance, for the past three days I've been going through a particularly severe depressive cycle -- the worst I've had in the past 30 months, in fact. I realized that I had gone into a severe depression because I felt absolutely miserable for no reason whatsoever. I wasn't pining over the loss of a pet, or a break-up with a significant other, or the loss of a job, or anything -- in fact, life is going pretty well for me at the moment, but I still feel absolutely miserable no matter what I do. Is this sinking in at all? Are you seeing the difference between your idea of depression (which has absolutely no basis in reality) and the reality of depression that I'm going through? At the moment, I cannot will myself to be happy any more than I can will my heart to stop beating -- my brain is not producing the chemicals necessary for me to feel happy, end of story, not a damn thing I can do about it but wait out the cycle and try to prevent it from feeding on itself. Number of pity parades I've thrown for myself in the past three days? None. Amount of time spent moping over the past three days? None. So **** off with your half-baked amateur psychologist bullshit.

	07-10-2002 07:04									#41
	Increase Your PM Length

The reason you don't let something 'bad' ruin your day is because you have that ability. If someone doesn't have that ability then they need some sort of help. It could be something that requires just counseling, or it may require medication, or both. Just saying "I think" most people don't require medication makes no point whatsoever, it's just an uninformed opinion unless you have the statistics to back it up. A description as to how free will functions would work as well. Just show that it functions independantly of the chemical makeup of the brain...

I can say that I think mental illness is a widespread, underdiagnosed problem, but I'd rather just show you the numbers.

http://www.nimh.nih.gov/publicat/numbers.cfm

quote: Mental disorders are common in the United States and internationally. An estimated 22.1 percent of Americans ages 18 and older—about 1 in 5 adults—suffer from a diagnosable mental disorder in a given year.1 When applied to the 1998 U.S. Census residential population estimate, this figure translates to 44.3 million people. 2 In addition, 4 of the 10 leading causes of disability in the U.S. and other developed countries are mental disorders-major depression, bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, and obsessive-compulsive disorder. 3 Many people suffer from more than one mental disorder at a given time.

http://www.surgeongeneral.gov/libra...pter2/sec7.html

quote: Slightly more than half of the 15 percent of the adult population that use mental health services have a diagnosable mental or addictive disorder (8 percent), while the remaining portion has a mental health problem (7 percent). Bearing in mind that 28 percent of the population have a diagnosable mental or substance abuse disorder, only about one-third with a diagnosable mental disorder receives treatment in 1 year (Figure 2-5). In short, this translates to the majority of those with a diagnosable mental disorder not receiving treatment.

So roughly 2/3rds of people with a diagnosable mental or substance abuse disorder go without treatment.

	07-10-2002 08:09									#42
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

It's spelled Adderal, and it's a stimulant used in the treatment of ADHD. Many children with ADHD can benefit from behavioral therapy, but you have to have the money and the trained therapists available. Many communities don't have this, so Adderal and Ritalin are substituted. Don't blame the kids. You can expect only so much will power from a seven year old these days. Back in the old days little kids had much more will power, 'cause their will power came from Daddy's belt, the shrubs behind the house, or even a little ol' stick of Louisville's finest Ash.

It's pretty well established that major depression is an inheritable disease. In seperated twin studies the concordance value of major depression has been found to be as high as .90.

	07-10-2002 08:12									#43
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I think that for some things we can control how we respond (Getting cut off while driving, failing a pop quiz, et al.), but those are mostly matters of perspective. Either you let the thing bother you or not.

Mental illness is completely different. That's all there is to say.

	07-10-2002 08:25									#44
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Twenty five years ago when I was a young know it all and my sister was suicidal I told her to quit being a whine and just kill herself already. I thought like Kaak. She got help...therapy and medication. She is still around.

After spending months alternately doing nothing, pacing the floor for hours, or sitting in front of my computer posting on internet sites like this one (with a bottle of rum and a loaded .38 beside the keyboard), I decided to get some help. Meds and therapy.

Yesterday I told her how sorry I was for the way I acted. She was very kind. Live and learn.

Of course she told me to stop being a whine and invoke Jesus. "Get thee behind me Satan".

I am just taking it a day at a time now.

	07-10-2002 08:56									#45
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Mental illness is completely different. That's all there is to say.

I agree, and even said so. But few people read before they slander

	07-10-2002 09:25									#46
	Increase Your PM Length

I have no idea if depression is classified as a mental illness or not but it can be devestating.

	07-10-2002 09:30									#47
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin Whilst I agree in the main with those who say it is not a matter of willing something to be so, I am inclined to subscribe to the power of positive thinking. If for no other reason than the placebo effect. Make someone think they are being treated and they get better. Obviously drugs are far more effective than placebos, but placebo does work in many (but by no means most) circumstances. (I'm thinking of hypochondria as an example)

The opposite is also true...

if you're negative then you can purposely not get helped by pills...just by not wanting to be better (subconsciously)

	07-10-2002 10:18									#48
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

You have two choices that are within your complete control -- you either clean and reuse your comb, or you throw it away.

	07-10-2002 10:48									#49
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

but i don't use a comb

	07-10-2002 12:00									#50
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Wittlich Well Taz, I'm guessing that since Zoloft in an anti-depression medication, then Aderol is also a form of medication...but I've never heard it before.

Me neither - which os why I asked. Is it possible that the others don't know what it is either which is why they are engaged in such heated debate. Thank you.

	07-10-2002 12:41									#51
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I feel my last post that I had made on the other thread suits this debate very well, so here is a repost:

"Well, some people are simply 'oversensitive' in my opinion.. that's all"

You still say they are oversensitive even though there is a chemical reason causing the depression? And what exact Sociological research are you using to say that most teenage depression cases are the fault of someone being "oversensitive"? You are just being prejudical and in doing so are contributing to a stigma that makes things worse for the depressed and discourages them from treatment.

"Bill 3000 "turned to Jesus" by the way and he announced that fact here on this forum. "

Well a person's beliefs and social relationship's almost definitely have a role to play in depression. Becoming more involved in religion can most certainly help you during difficult times and can have a psychological benefit. Depression is more then a chemical problem, which is why most of the time therapy goes right along with depression medication. But of course, just because social relationships and such are involved does not mean we should judge the person as weak or such... We also should not assume to be oversensitive or judge them as to whether the causes of their chemical imbalance are valid or whether we should "Let these ungrateful bastards die" as Speer so eloquently put it. We should not assume these people are just whiners who need to deal with these problems. Rather, we should recognize that by Chemical reasons these people are going through great suffering and treat them with love and compassion.

	07-10-2002 12:44									#52
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

you didn't read the thread, did you?

	07-10-2002 13:03									#53
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

You should have kept on the other thread without creating your own special person thread.

	07-10-2002 13:08									#54
	Inflate your Upload Space

this one is decidely different. So, as to not jack the other, i started anew...

	07-10-2002 15:55									#55
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Can someone suffer from anti-depression. That is feel good for no apparent reason. Can they take medication to treat the imbalance? (Not that they would, unless being happy all the time was getting them down)

Its a serious question.

	07-10-2002 16:25									#56
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin Can someone suffer from anti-depression. That is feel good for no apparent reason. Can they take medication to treat the imbalance? (Not that they would, unless being happy all the time was getting them down) Its a serious question.

You're describing the mania in manic depression, also known as bipolar disorder. Whilst the sufferer may feel fantastic, they may also think and do irrational things.

	07-10-2002 16:27									#57
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Manic depressed have really high highs, and really low lows. It's not like being happy or sad in either case though. For me, the highs always feel out of control and came with a lot of nervous energy and anxiety. Not what I would call happy.

I'm not sure if there is a disorder that would fit what you are talking about.

	07-10-2002 16:31									#58
	Got spare money?

I was thinking more of being in a permanently high state. Or someone who does not ever feel depressed.

	07-10-2002 16:33									#59
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin I was thinking more of being in a permanently high state. Or someone who does not ever feel depressed.

"Maniacs"

	07-10-2002 18:43									#60
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin I was thinking more of being in a permanently high state. Or someone who does not ever feel depressed.

I think that these people would probably be called Hyperactive, rather than Manic.

quote: Originally posted by Kaak But few people read before they slander

It's not slander if there's truth behind it. I suspect that most people read...

quote: Originally posted by Kaak Aeson, "i think" is valid enough to support the tangent.

...and concluded that you were just talking out of your ass in order to feel superior to a large segment of the population. It would be like me saying "I think that there are too many people claiming to be parapelegics. One time I sat down in a wheelchair for a minute, and you know what, I was able to get out of that wheelchair and walk again, so that proves that there's no truth to the claims of most parapelegics that their spinal chords are damaged! Sure, one or two people claiming to be parapelegics might be the real deal, but the rest of them are just faking because they're too lazy to walk on their own." Unsubstantiated claims to superiority are pretty difficult for most people to choke down without laughing.