06-10-2002 20:40									#1
	General Discusion about Middle Age Wonders Put an end to popups!

This is a general Discusion about the rest of the Middle Ages Wonders and their Importance to us. We will only have the chance to build one of these Wonders, so which one should it be.

Great Wonders of the Middle Ages:
1) J.S. Bach Cathedral - 600 Sheilds (480 other Civs). Makes 2 unhappy citizens content per city. Requires Music Theory. Doesn't expire.

2) Smith's Trading Company - 600 Sheilds (480 other Civs). Pays Maintainance Cost for the following: Marketplaces (1); Harbors (1); Banks (1) & Airports (2). Requires Economics. Doesn't expire.

3) Magellan's Voyage - 400 Sheilds (320 other Civs). Increases Naval Unit movement by 1. Requires Navigation. Doesn't expire.

4) Newtons University - 400 Sheilds (320 other Civs). Doubles the Science output only in the City that it's built in. Requires Theory of Gravity. Doesn't expire.

5) Shakespeare's Theater - 400 Sheilds (320 other Civs). Makes 8 unhappy citizens content only in the city that it's built in. Requires Free Artistry. Doesn't expire.


Small Wonders of the Middle Ages:
1) Forbidden Palace - 200 Sheilds. Acts like a 2nd Palace for Corruption/Waste purposes. Requirement has been met. Doesn't expire.

2) Wall Street - 300 Sheilds. Treasury earns 5% interest per turn, up to a maximim of 50 LPT (at 1000 Lytons or more in the treasury). Requires 5 Banks built and Banking Tech to build Banks. Doesn't expire.

3) Heroic Epic - 200 Sheilds. Increases the chance of a Great Leader being generated. Requires a Victorious Army to build. Doesn't expire.

4) Military Academy - 400 Sheilds. Can build Armies without a Great Leader. Armies built are Veteran (I don't know if they fight diffently from a Regular Army, anyone know?). Requires a Victorious Army and Mitilary Tradition to build. Doesn't expire.


The Wonder Race between the other Civs is currently on again, 4 of them are working on JSB. Rome looks to be the top contender to building this one first. We will only have the chance to build ONE of the Great Wonders this age, and so thereby this discussion.

I think that we should try for Smith' Trading company. We currently have 34 Cities (soon to be 36 and maybe 39), with about 19 of those having Harbors at sometime. With Markets, Banks & Harbors, we would save 91 LPT to be used for Cash or Research or both.

We should pick a city that can support a large population with a good Production rate (anticipated, that is) and start storing up Sheilds to build the wonder.

From my 440AD report in the Foreign Ministers Thread:
Rome - Rome - started in 430 AD
Started at Size 10, now size 10; Prod 11-13, 37-44 Turns total at that time. In 440AD, will be currently at 36-43 turns to complete.

Greece - Rhodes - started in 430 AD
started at size 2, now size 2; Prod 2-4, 120-240 Turns total at that time. In 440 AD, will be currently at 119-239 turns to complete.

Germany - Hamburg - started in 420 AD (actually as Copernigus in 380, then switched in 420)
Started at size 6, now size 6; Prod 6-8, 60-80 Turns total at that time. In 440AD, will be currently at 53-73 turns to complete.

England - Nottingham - started in 430 AD
Started at size 6, now size 6; Prod 7-9, 54-69 Turns total at this time. In 440AD, will be currently at 53-69 turns to complete.

If we start now and work for it, we can conseavably get STC. Conversly, If we get another GL, do we use it on an Army, JSB or STC? These things have to be desided soon it we're going to get a wonder on our own.

E_T

	06-10-2002 21:59									#2
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Here are my answers to your two questions:

SHOULD WE: I'm not sure we should start working toward a wonder right now... our infrastructure is pathetically under-developed and we should get at least the minimum improvements (marketplace, temple, cathedral, and library - courthouse if needed) in the city that is going to build wonders (Macross City would be best if we put the capital in Timeline). Once those needed improvements are done, I say we go ahead and start a wonder, hoping to get at least ONE wonder done sometime in the middle age with that city.

WHICH ONE: Smith's Trading Company is always my first choice, but that's influenced in part by my tendency to play commercial civs. I still think Smith's Trading Company is the top choice. If we can't get that one, then we can settle for Isaac Newton's. Magellan's should be an absolute last resort (although we can't see the whole map, I highly doubt this is a map where Magellan's will be decisive).

WHAT TO DO WITH A GL: I think an army is by far the best choice of what to do with any new GL. This is because it would then allow us to use it and work on Heroic Epic, Military Academy, and perhaps even eventually the Pentagon. This would be very valuable to do and we should start now... which means using the next GL available on an army. I go through most games getting no more than 2 GL's, so we'll be VERY lucky in my opinion if we even get another (and it probably won't happen for a very long time, given the chances).

So there's my two cents

	06-10-2002 22:11									#3
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

The STC is the best option IMO, and i fits well with our current goal of strengthening our economy. The use of a GL, is more tricky i think, we should know what are the chances of getting one with and without the Heroic epic. Besides that, we aren't planning on fighting long wars after we finish with persia and america so for now the chances of getting one are nil. But we should plan what to do with one when we get one, and we should take the Heroic epic and the Military academy small wonders into consideration. If a miracle does happen and we manage to get a GL in the near future, i think we should use it for the STC.

	07-10-2002 02:45									#4
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Building Newtons University in the city that has the greatest science output would definetely improve our research capabilities...

Bach's cathedral and Smith's Trading Comp are both rather large undertakings, but I believe STC would be the best choice

	07-10-2002 02:55									#5
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We *never* research anything for serious. Only if this changes, think about Newton's.

	07-10-2002 03:37									#6
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IF we had to build one of them, I am more in favor of Bach's Cathedral (which we cant beat the AI to at this point), if that one cant be completed build Smith's Trading Co.

But building a wonder might not be the best option at this point.

	07-10-2002 04:21									#7
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I'd love to get Bach's, but it seems like a long shot. Worth spending a great leader on, IMO.
In terms of prebuilding a wonder, I agree we should focus on one. And I'd strongly favor Smith's. I usually target this in games. The industrial era, for me at least, usually ends up being one in which I barter and buy most of my techs -- meaning, a strong revenue base will be key. Not until the modern era will we be able to match the AI (with its very artificial research advantages) in research capacity.

	07-10-2002 04:53									#8
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quote: Originally posted by BigFurryMonster We *never* research anything for serious. Only if this changes, think about Newton's.

Doesn't that create a problem of the Chicken and the Egg?

I mean, I would think that Newton's would HELP US develop the ability to compete with the AI in techs.

That said, Adam Smiths' is my first choice

	07-10-2002 05:09									#9
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Newton's University. Why?

Because we have several perfect sites for it that have over 16 river tiles in their radius to be increased even more by that wonder. The others are continental effects that are not site specific. We can take those from their builders and still reap the benifits. The AI is too stupid to put Newton any where that would be strategically well placed.

	07-10-2002 05:22									#10
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Newton's and Wall Street.
Smith is my second choice.

Can we get both Newton and Wall Street?

	07-10-2002 05:30									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Sheik Newton's and Wall Street. Smith is my second choice. Can we get both Newton and Wall Street?

Yes, we can ALWAYS build Wall Street its a little wonder and each civ gets to build one.

	07-10-2002 08:21									#12
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How do we go about getting a wonder at this stage? We need to start "storing" sheilds and have the city that we'll be building in selected. We have Music Theory, so we can "start building" JSB to use for storage. Rome won't complete JSB for another 30-34 turns, so we could conseivably have Economics by that time.

Currently, in the game, we could buy Gunpowder for 1033 Lytons. And the cost will be going up for each Technology. The war with Persia is over. We control 4 of the 5 Luxuries that this are on this continent. There are 4 Civ's that are capable of making first contact with the lost Civ's. Two of them, Germany & Rome could concevably have the next Tech after Astronomy, but not really likely. Germany looks to be running the technology lead. We greatly outnumber the Germans in number of Cities, but we need to increase population to bring up the general trade. We need our infrastructure increased by leaps & bounds.

We will need a GA and possibly Republic to get what we need. We shouldn't allow ourselves to become second or third class citizens on our own continent. The Banana has smiled on us, we should be able to show the we are worthy of his blessings.

E_T

	07-10-2002 12:59									#13
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ET - In my own games I use a builder strategy very similar when I know a wonder is out of reach but I work on it and save up the shields to use for a different wonder I may need by the time I'm beaten to the bunch, sometimes very effective, although alot of the time you end up with a wonder that was second on your list...

on that note I propose

Newton University
Adam Smith
Wall Street

	07-10-2002 13:31									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Meshelic Newton University Adam Smith Wall Street

Here here!

	07-10-2002 14:19									#15
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As a religious civ, I feel that Bach's is best. With Bach's we would have NO NEED for any lux on the slider bar -- EVER!

Its like a free temple in EVERY CITY (minus the cult). Newly liberated cites from every civ on Abananba would esentialy have a Barracks, Granery and temple instantly!

This would work great with the civ whacking I have brought up in other threads.

	07-10-2002 21:56									#16
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General comment: No Middle Ages Wonders expires.
The only wonders at all that expire are all ancient wonders (exception : Pyraimds)

Forbidden Palace & Heoric Epic are ancient Small Wonders.

As for building great wonders right now. We can't afford it. There's too much infer structure we must build in all our core cities first.

Looking at the list above: Greece is a non-factor. They are wasting their shields.

Looks like Rome builds Bachs.

Hamburg and Nottighman switch to Newton's once that happens and very quickly builds it.

Whichever city doesn't build Newtons switches to Smiths and builds it.

	09-10-2002 20:32									#17
	Here's where everybody is in the wonder race Inflate your Upload Space

Well, two more contenders have entered the Race for the JSB Wonder. They are Russia at Moscow and Persia at Sardis. Here is a new list to show you where they are at right now. This list doesn't allow for any Waste or Specialist in it's calculations.

Here it is


Rome is still the number one contender. Russia needs Spices, we don't know about Ivory, so they might have some specialist (redusing production) and they are close to one of their other cities and will most likely be sharing production tiles. Persia's an afterthought, but I included it in the list.

E_T